Individual Page


Family
Marriage: Children:
  1. B eatrice De Vermandois: Birth: 26 Mar 880 in Vermandois, Normandy, France. Death: 26 Mar 931 in Soissons, Aisne, Picardy, France

  2. Liudgard de Vermandois: Birth: Abt 882 in Vermandois, , Normandy, France. Death: 12 Dec 949 in Bavaria, Germany

  3. Judith De Vermandois: Birth: Abt 883 in Of Vermandois, Normandy, France. Death: 949

  4. Heribert Herbert Hubert De Vermandois: Birth: 884 in Vermandois, Neustria, France. Death: 23 Feb 943 in St. Quentin, Aisne, Pas-DE-Calais, Picardy, France

  5. Adele de Vermandois: Birth: Abt 892 in Ofwales, Vermandois, Normandy, France. Death: Abt 970 in Baden-Baden, Baden-W�urttemberg, Germany

  6. Kunigunde De Vermandois: Birth: 895 in Of Vermandois, Normandy, France. Death: 12 Dec 949

  7. Sporte De Bretagne: Birth: Abt 900 in Bretagne, France. Death: Bef 940


Family
Marriage:
Family
Marriage:
Family
Marriage: Children:
  1. Odo Hugo De Vermandois: Birth: Abt 892 in Vermandois, Normandy, France.

  2. Henri Comte De Vermandois: Birth: Abt 896 in Vermandois, Normandy, France.


Sources
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16. Title:   The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest
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Publication:   DSO Genealogical Publishing, Baltimore, 1984, 1993
26. Title:   Ancestral Roots of Sixty Colonists Who Came to New England between 1623 and 1650, Sixth Edition
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27. Title:   Royal Ancestors of Some American Families
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Author:   Call, Michel
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28. Title:   Directory of Royal Genealogical Data
Author:   Tompsett, Brian
29. Title:   Genealogie de Jean-Michel Ducosson
Author:   Ducosson, J.M.
Publication:   Name: Name: Name: 24 May 2001; http://www.genealogie33.org/pduc/duc.htm; [email protected];;;
30. Title:   G�en�ealogie de Carn�e
Author:   de Carn�e, Alain
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31. Title:   The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest
Author:   Weber, Jim
Publication:   Name: Name: Name: 20 Aug 2004; http://wc.rootsweb.com; <[email protected]>;;;
32. Title:   My Cousins
Author:   Stewart, Robert Brian
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Notes
a. Note:   murdered HERBERT I, first Count de Vermandois and Abb of St. Quentin, living 896; assassinated by the Count of Flanders 902; married the daughter of Robertle Tort, Duke of France. Comte de Vermandois. Assassin�b sur l'ordre de Baudouin II de Flandres. Spouses: 1.X unknown 2. De Morvois, Bertha - born: ABT 840 @ 3. France, - born: ABT 862 aft 0902; 6 Nov. 900/07 OCCU of Vermandois, 896-902 EVEN TYPE Acceded DATE 896Count of Vermandois. OCCU 2nd Count de Vermandois.. misc.traveller.com/genealogy/gedhtml/kmilburn says 848; GWALTNEY.ANC & COMYN4. TAF say 840;members.aol.com/sargen3 says ABT 848,Vermandois, Normandy, France; Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 168 says c840 SOUR Americans of Royal Descent, Charles H. Browning, p. 11, 163, 467 says 902; Royalty for Commoners, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 168 says 900/907; says 900/908; CHARLEMG.ZIP (GS) says 902; 1st name sometimes spelled Heribert - COMYNR.TAF (Compuserve Roots), p. 2; Heribert I (Caroling) de Vermandois - COMYNI.GED (Compuserve); Count of Soissons, Seigeneur de Senlis, Peronne, and St. Quentin - Royalty for Commoner s, Roderick W. Stuart, p. 168; aceded 896 Count of Vermandois - gendex.com/users/daver/rigney/D0001 NSFX Seigneur of Senlis, Peronne et St. Quentin TYPE Book AUTH Stuart, Roderick W. PERI Royalty for Commoners EDTN 3d PUBL Genealogical Publishing co., Inc, Baltimore, MD (1998) ISB 0-8063-1561-X TEXT 231-37; (351-37) TYPE Book AUTH �A or c:Weis, Frederick Lewis PERI Ancestral Roots EDTN 7th PUBL Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Baltimore, MD (1999) TEXT 48-18; 50-17; 143-20 TITL Final.ged REPO CALN MEDI Other DATA TEXT Date of Import: Feb 1, 1999 TITL Final.ged REPO CALN MEDI Other DATA TEXT Date of Import: Feb 1, 1999 TITL Final.ged REPO CALN MEDI Other DATA TEXT Date of Import: Feb 1, 1999 Count of Vermandois and Soissons, Seigneur de Senlis, Perrone and St. Quentin Spouses: 1.X unknown 2. De Morvois, Bertha - born: ABT 840 @ 3. France, - born: ABT 862 EVEN TYPE Acceded DATE 896Count of Vermandois. FRANKEN, Heribert I [9840] Abt 840 - ____ TITLE: I BIRTH: Abt 840 DEATH: Y Father: FRANKEN, Pippin Family 1 : +VERMANDOIS, Adela +VERMANDOIS, Beatrix +VERMANDOIS, Heribert II +FRANKEN, Kunigunde http://genealogy.munthe.net/database/g0004476.html#I8375 !Count of Vermandois, Seigneur de Senlis, Peronne, and St. Quentin. Murdered. [Desc. of Charlemagne, Vol. III] !Son of Pepin; m. Berthe of Morvais; father of Herbert II. [Ped. of Charlemagne, Vol. I, p. 269] Seigneur de P�eronne and St-Quentin. Killed in 902 by the followers of a count of Flanders, and was succeeded by Herbert II, count of Vermandois. [Falaise Roll, p. 187] Count of Vermandois; m. Bertha of Morvois; father of Herbert II. [Charlemagne & Others, Chart 3316] b.c. 840, murdered c. 902; Count of Vermandois, Seigneur of Senlis, Peronne and St. Quentin; son of Pepin, Count of Senlis, Peronne and St. Quentin; m. Bertha de Morvois; father of Herbert II, Count of Vermandois and Troyes. [Ancestral Roots, p. 51] Son of Pepin II de Vermandois and Rothaide; m. Berth Paris; father of Herbert II who m. Liegearde France. --------------------- Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project page on Herbert I,Count of Vermandois Heribert I *Count of Vermandois, 896-900�j6. *Count of Soissons and lay-abbot of Saint-Cr�epin, before 898-900�j6. Heribert first appears in 877, when he and his brother P�epin were among those sent by emperor Charles the Bald to prepare for a meeting between the pope and emperor ["Quapropter praemisit Odacrum secundi scrinii notarium, Goiramnum comitem et Pippinum atque Heribertum, ad procuranda ipsius papae servitia." Ann. Bertin., s.a. 877, 136]. In 893, he and P�epin are found with Charles the Simple upon his elevation as king ["Odone rege in Aquitania commemorata, Francorum principes ex permaxima parte ab eo deficiunt, et agnetibus Folcone episcopo, Heriberto et Pippino comitibus, in Remorum civitate Carolus filius Hludowici, ex Adalheide regina, ut supra meminimus, natus, in regnum elevatur." Regino, s.a. 892 (misdated), MGH SS 1: 605]. In 896, Heribert killed Raoul, brother of count Baldwin II [Ann. Vedast., s.a., 896, 78], who had been expelled earlier that year from the countship of Vermandois, and it is probably in this year that Heribert became count of Vermandois and lay-abbot and Saint-Quentin. Heribert last appears in 900 (the year that Annales Vedastini end), and he was killed not long afterward by a follower of Baldwin II of Flanders. --- Date of Birth: Unknown. Place of Birth: Unknown. Date of Death: 900�j906. *Regino of Pr�um, writing ca. 906, in comments added to the obituary of king Bernard of Italy under the year 818, mentions that Bernard's grandson Heribert had killed count Rodulf, son of Baldwin, in Regino's own time, and that Heribert was killed not long after by a supporter (also named Baldwin) of Rodulf's brother Baldwin [II] of Flanders ["qui Heribertus Rodulfum comitem, filium Balduini interfecit nostris temporibus, et non multum post occisus est a Balduino, satellite Balduini, fratris Rodulfi, qui Balduinus hucusque in Flandris ducatum tenet." Regino, s.a. 818, MGH SS 1: 567] Place of Death: Unknown. --- Father: Pepin/Pippin, d. after 840, count (near Paris). Mother: Unknown. *The conjecture that she was a member of the "Nibelungen" family (descendents of Childrebrand, son of Charles Martel) is based on the fact that Heribert I's predecessors in some of his possessions belonged to that family, and on the presence of the name Heribert in that family [see Werner (1960), 101-6]. Spouses: Unknown. *See the Commentary section. Children (very probable): *It is rather surprising to see the extent to which modern scholars have glossed over the lack of direct documentation for the relationship between Heribert I and Heribert II. In fact, I did not notice this gap in documentation until the question of documentation for the parentage of Heribert II was raised on the soc.genealogy.medieval/GEN-MEDIEVAL internet newsgroup/mailing list on 13 September 2005 by Steve Barnhoorn, and soon after discussed in more detail by Peter Stewart. *Indeed, in his detailed critical study of this family, Karl Ferdinand Werner started his paper by indicating that the Carolingian descent was well documented ["Im Gegnsatz zu den meisten andern westfr�ankischen F�urstengeschlechtern stellt das Haus Vermandois der Forschung nicht das heikle Problem der Herkunft - zumindest nicht in Mannesstamm. Der karolingische Ursprung ist sicher bezeugt." Werner (1960), 87], followed by a footnote which did in fact document the descent of Heribert I from Charlemagne, but then just stated that Heribert II was a son of Heribert I, without offering any direct documentation there or elsewhere in the paper. *Brandenburg (1964) and Settipani (1993), both of them sources which should state such documentation (or at least mention the lack thereof), state the link without documentation or further comment. *The earliest source which would appear (at least at first glance) to offer such documentation is an eleventh century Angevin genealogical table, in which Ad�ele de Troyes, wife of count Geoffroy Grisegonelle of Anjou, is called adaughter of Robert, son of Heribert, son of another Heribert. [Poupardin (1900), 207; see also the page of Heribert's great-granddaughter Ad�ele, which shows the table] Unfortunately, there is a serious error which undermines thissource (which is, of course, not comtemporary anyway). In this table, it is the elder Heribert who is stated to be the captor of king Charles the Simple, whereas that deed was actually performed by Heribert II. Because Heribert II did have a son named Heribert, the exact nature of the error remains unclear (is Robert being erroneously assigned as son of his own brother, or was the captor of Charles simply misidentified in an otherwise correct genealogy?),and this source is therefore not good evidence for the parentage of Heribert II. *The strongest piece of indirect evidence for Heribert II's parentage is that he is found in possession of the lands which were also held by his namesake Heribert I, e.g. Soissons, Vermandois. Also of note is the statement of theannalist Flodoard that Heribert had a cousin (consobrinus) named Bernard ["..., et Heribertus comes Bernardum, consobrinum suum, cum aliis legatis consilium quod per illos agebatur, ut fertur, ignorantibus, ad Karolum dirigit." Flodoard, Annales, s.a. 923, 15]. *Since Heribert I had a brother named Bernard, this also gives good onomastic evidence. Thus, despite the lack of direct documentation for the relationship, it is very probable that Heribert II was the son and successor of Heribert I. (In the unlikely event that Heribert II was not a son of Heribert I, he would in that case almost certainly be a son of either Bernard or P�epin, brothers of Heribert I.) 1. Heribert II, b. say 880, d. 23 February 943, count of Meaux, Soissons, and Vermandois, and abbot of Saint-Cr�epin and Saint-M�edard (Soissons), 900�j7-943; m. before 907, Ad�ele, daughter of Robert of Neustria (later Robert I, king of France). 2. NN, m. Udo, count of Wetterau. *An entry in Flodoard's annals for the year 946 shows that Udo (identified as a brother of Hermann) had married an amita of bishop Hugues, also mentioning Arnulf, who had married the bishop's sister ["Videns autem praesul Hugo obsidionem se tolerare non posse, neque tantae resistere multitudini, locutus est cum quibusdam principibus qui videbantur sibi esse amici, videlicet cum Arnulfo, qui ejus sororem, et Uddone, qui amitam ipsius habebat uxorem, sed etcum Hermanno, Uddonis fratre, quaesivit ab eis, quid sibi foret agendum." Flodoard, Annales, s.a. 946, 102]. *Since Hugues was a son of Heribert II and Arnulf (I of Flanders) was married to a daughter of Heribert II, Udo's wife would be a sister of Heribert, assuming that amita is to be interpreted in the usual sense as paternal aunt. *The suggestion that her name was Cun�egonde is an unverified conjecture [See Settipani (1993), 222-3; Jackman (1997), 36, 38]. Commentary Falsely attributed wife (fictional): Berthe, daughter of Guerri (Wedricus), count of Morvois, and his wife Eva. *The main basis of the claim is Historia Walciodorensis Monasterii, a very legendary account of the founder of Waulsort monastery, Ybert de Ribemont (Eilbertus, Elbertus), which includes a fabricated genealogy which, among other false claims, makes this Ybert a brother of count Heribert of Saint-Quentin, and states that Ybert and his brother Heribert were responsible for the famous capture of king Charles the Simple, thus clearly identifying Heribert as Heribert II. *Eilbertus and comes Heribertus de Sancto Quintino are listed among the seven supposed sons of Ebroinus by his wife Berta, who brought Florennes to her husband as the daughter of Widricus and Eva. ["... Eius itaque pater comes Ebroinus fuit, vir armis strenuus. Hic armis strenuus et omni honestate preclarus. Iste igitur Ebroinus industria sua et virtute multa acquirens, filiam Wederici comitis et eius uxoris Evae, quae in nominis agnitione Berta nuncupabatur, sumpsit in coniugum, accipiens cum ea, dante ipso genitore atque genetrice, Florinas et quicquid ad eundem pagum Florinensem pertinet. ..." Hist. Walc. Monast., c. 1, MGH SS 14: 505; "... Iste autem Ebroinus ex prefati comitis Wederici et eius uxoris Evae filia, quae, ut superius prefati sumus, Berta dicebatur, septem habuit filios, qui terram longe lateque post decessionem patris tenuerunt hereditario iure et sibi prudentia sua multa acquisierunt. ..." Hist. Walc. Monast., c. 2, MGH SS 14: 505; "Primus itaque in ordine generationis come Eilbertus fuit, maior et natu et dignitate, secundus post hunc comes Uddo de Roix, deinde comes Heribertus de Sancto Quintino, Gerardus de Odenarde, comes Boso, comes Witerus et Macuardus venerabilis episcopus. ..." Hist. Walc. Monast., c. 3, MGH SS 14: 505-6; "Igitur anno ab incarnatione Domini nongentisimo vicesimo secundo Karolus rex Francorum captus ab Eilberto et fratre eius Heriberto usque ad Pernam et ab eisdem sub vinculis carceralis custodiae ibidem diebus multis religatur. ...", Hist. Walc. Monast., c. 5, MGH SS 14: 506]. *From this starting point, the "logic" on which this false claim is based is easy enough to see. It has been assumed by some authors that the sibling relationship between Ybert and Heribert is at least partly correct, i.e., through their mother. If this argument is accepted, then Ybert's mother Berthe becomes the wife of Heribert I [e.g., Chaume, 1: 543 (table VIII)]. However, the account of Historia Walciodorensis Monasterii is legendary, and attempts todeduce genealogical truths from such legends are not valid. *Indeed, for a very different genealogical scenario based on the same legends, see the page of Wigeric, d. 916�j9, count of Bidgau, where more details are included. Falsely attributed daughter: Beatrix, m. Robert of Neustria (later Robert I, king of France). *The claim that Robert married a sister of Heribert II appears occasionally from the twelfth century on ["Habebat enim idem Robertus sororem istius Herberti in conjugio; de qua ortus est Hugo Magnus." Historia Francorum Senonensis, MGH SS 9: 366; "..., a Herberto comite, cuius sororem predictus Robertus habebat in uxorem, ..." Ex Stephanni Normannico Dracone, i, 24, MGH SS 26: 157]. *However, since contemporary sources verify that Heribert II was married to Robert's daughter, these later accounts are more likely to be confused accounts of Heribert's marriage. Robert did have a wife named Beatrix, but she wasnot a daughter of Heribert [See Schwager (1994), Excurs 4, 406-9]. Conjectured daughter (existence doubtful): Ad�ele, m. Gebhard, count of Ulfgau. *[Jackman (1990), 134-5, 178; Jackman (1997), 36, 38] The existence of this supposed daughter is based on a chain of arguments which will only be outlined here. It is closely related to the question of the parentage of Heribert, count of Kinziggau (d. 992) [for whom a page on this website is planned, but as yet unwritten]. *In what might be called the "orthodox" account of Heribert's parentage, he is a son of the above marriage of count Udo with a daughter of Heribert I, and there is no need to hypothesize another daughter as a wife of Gerhard (a first cousin of Udo). *In what might be called the "alternate" account of Heribert's parentage (proposed notably by Armin Wolf and Donald Jackman), Heribert was a member of another branch of the Konradiner dynasty, a son of Konrad, son of Gebhard of Ulfgau. In this second case, another daughter of Heribert I is hypothesized (and identified with an Adela who appears on a Reichenau memorial list) in order to explain the appearance of the name Heribert in this branch of the Konradiner dynasty. *Thus, in order to accept the existence of this daughter, one must first accept the "alternate" scenario of Heribert's parentage, and even then it is still no more than a conjecture. -------------------- From the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy Medlands page on Frankish Nobility (covering his marriage): http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Pepindiedafter850B PEPIN [I], son of BERNARD I King of Italy [Carolingian] & his wife Cunegundis --- ([815]-after 850). *Regino names "Pippinum" son of "Bernhardus filius Pippin rex Itali�"[560]. *Seigneur de P�eronne et de Saint-Quentin[561]. *Comte near Paris after 834. *He supported Emperor Lothaire after the death of Emperor Louis I "le Pieux", despite having sworn allegiance to Charles II "le Chauve"[562]. *The Annales Bertiniani name "Ratholdus?episcopus, Bonifacius comes, Pippinus consanguineus imperatoris" as supporters of Emperor Louis I in 834[563]. m ---. The name of P�epin's wife is not known. *Settipani suggests[564] that the wife of Comte P�epin was --- [du Vexin], daughter of THEODERIC, son of NIBELUNG Comte du Vexin, bearing in mind that P�epin's descendants inherited estates in the Vexin. Comte P�epin & his wife had five children: 1. BERNARD [I] ([845]-[before 893]). *Regino names (in order) "Bernardum, Pippinum et Heribertum" as the three children of "Pippinum"[565]. According to Italian authors[566], Bernard went to Italy and was the ancestor of the Bernardhengi. Settipani is sceptical about this, particularly as the names Pepin and Heribert are not found among the alleged descendants. He suggests that comte Bernard may be the same Bernard recorded as one of the executors of Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks in 877[567]. *"Adelelm et Bernard comtes de la region du Laonnais" donated property to Sainte-Marie de Laon as executors of the testament of Charles II "le Chauve" King of the Franks[568]. 2. PEPIN [II] ([845]-after 28 Jan 893]). *Regino names (in order) "Bernardum, Pippinum et Heribertum" as the three children of "Pippinum"[569]. *At the court of Emperor Charles ?le Chauve? in 877[570], thereafter Comte to the north of Paris. *Emperor Karl III confirmed a grant of property including "villamque in Pipenensi comitatatu qu� Nogenlis dicitur" to the church of Grandval by charter dated 20 Sep 884[571]. *Regino names "Folcone episcopo, Heriberto et Pippino comitibus in Remorum civitate" when recording that they supported the accession of Charles III "le Simple" King of the West Franks in 892 in opposition to King Eudes, but doesnot specify the relationship between Heribert and Pepin[572]. --- 3. HERIBERT ([850]-killed [900/6 Nov 907]). Regino names (in order) "Bernardum, Pippinum et Heribertum" as the three children of "Pippinum", specifying that Heribert killed "Rodulfum comitem filium Balduini comitis"[573]. "Heribertus, Bernhardi frater" is named in the Vita Hludowicis Imperatoris[574]. Regino names "Folcone episcopo, Heriberto et Pippino comitibus in Remorum civitate" when recording that they supported the accession of Charles III "le Simple" King of the West Franks in 892 in opposition to King Eudes, but does not specify the relationship between Heribert and Pepin[575]. Heribert became Comte de Vermandois in 896. --- 4. [CUNEGUNDIS. *Cunegundis was cited in a list of relations of comte Odo, son-in-law of H�eribert I Comte de Vermandois, without any indication of how she may have been related to the family[576].] 5. [daughter . *[m firstly BERENGER Comte [de Bayeux], son of --- (-13 Dec [892 or after]). *The necrology of Le Mans Cathedral records the death "Id Dec" of "Beringerius comes"[577]. One way of reconciling the apparently contradictory sources which recount the origin of Poppa, wife of Rollo of Normandy, is that her mother married firstly Berengar Comte de Bayeux and secondly Guy Comte de Senlis. There is no proof that this is correct.] *m [secondly] WIDO [Guy] Comte de Senlis , son of ---. [One possible child] [of second marriage]. References: *[560] Reginonis Chronicon 818, MGH SS I, p. 567. *[561] R�osch, p. 86. *[562] Nithard, Historiarum libri IV, ed. P. Lauer (Paris, 1926), cited in Settipani, C. and Kerrebrouck, P. van (1993) La pr�ehistoire des Cap�etiens 481-987, 1�ere partie, M�erovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (Villeneuve d'Ascq), p. 214. *[563] Annales Bertiniani I 834. *[564] Settipani, C. and Kerrebrouck, P. van (1993) La pr�ehistoire des Cap�etiens 481-987, 1�ere partie, M�erovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (Villeneuve d'Ascq), p. 215. *[565] Reginonis Chronicon 818, MGH SS I, p. 567. *[566] Pocchetino, G. (1922), 'I Pipinidi in Italia (sec. VIII-XII)', Archivio storico Lombardo, 54 (1927), pp. 1-43, and Violante, C. (1974) 'Quelques caract�eristiques des structures familiales en Lombardie, Emilie et Toscane aux XI et XII si�ecles', Famille et parent�e dans l'Occident medieval (Rome), pp. 87-147, 128, both cited in Settipani (1993), p. 215. *[567] Settipani (1993), p. 215 footnote 177. *[568] Bourgeois, E. (1885) Le capitulaire de Kiersy-sur-Oise (Paris), p. 23. *[569] Reginonis Chronicon 818, MGH SS I, p. 567. *[570] Settipani (1993), p. 215. *[571] D Karl 108, p. 172, headed "verunechtet" in the compilation. *[572] Reginonis Chronicon 892, MGH SS I, p. 605. *[573] Reginonis Chronicon 818, MGH SS I, p. 567. *[574] Vita Hludowici Imperatoris, MGH SS II, p. 633. *[575] Reginonis Chronicon 892, MGH SS I, p. 605. *[576] Settipani (1993), p. 217. *[577] N�ecrologe du Mans, p. 329. --- From the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy page on Northern France (covering his married life): http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#HeribertIdied900907 HERIBERT [I], son of PEPIN [Carolingian] Seigneur de P�eronne et de St Quentin, Comte near Paris ([848/850]-murdered [900/6 Nov 907]). Regino names (in order) "Bernardum, Pippinum et Heribertum" as the three children of "Pippinum", specifying that H�eribert killed "Rodulfum comitem filium Balduini comitis"[1400]. "Heribertus, Bernhardi frater" is named in the Vita Hludowicis Imperatoris[1401]. He was at the court of Emperor Charles II ?le Chauve? in 877. *Comte de Soissons 886/898. *Abb�e de St Cr�epin. *Comte de Meaux et de Madrie 888/889[1402]. *He became Comte de Vermandois in 896. The Annales Vedastini record that "Rodulfus comes" disrupted the peace in 896 and took the property of "Heribertus et Erkingerus", that "Odo rex" besieged "castrum sancti Quintini et Peronam" and expelled Raoul's supporters, and that H�eribert killed Raoul[1403]. Comte H�eribert opposed Eudes King of France, but was reconciled with the king in 897, an event which may have been confirmed by the marriage of H�eribert's daughter to the king's nephew Robert[1404]. Baudouin II Count of Flanders attacked Vermandois, was driven out by 900 but reconquered it and killed H�eribert [I] Comte de Vermandois in revenge for his brother's death[1405]. m [LIETGARDIS], daughter of --- (-27 May ----). *The name of the wife of Comte H�eribert is not known. However, a "Comtesse Liedgardis", different from the daughter of Comte H�eribert [II], is named who could have been his wife[1406]. If this is correct, the necrology of Reimswhich records the death "VI Kal Jun" of "Letgardis comitissa"[1407], may refer to the same person[1408]. *According to the Histoire de Guise, Albert Comte de Vermandois constructed the abbey of Saint-Michel at Rochefort in 945 "d'accord avec la comtesse H�er�esinde sa femme", while in 947 H�er�esinde founded the nearby Benedictine convent of Bucilly[1409]. The source assumes that this refers to Albert Comte de Vermandois, but his supposed marriage to H�er�esinde is not mentioned by Settipani[1410]. *According to the introduction to the Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Bucilly, Bucilly was founded by "Gerberge, femme d'Albert I Comte de Vermandois" although it notes that "certains auteurs ont voulu faire remonter [sa foundation] �a la lib�eralit�e de Hersinde femme d'Herbert Comte de Vermandois morte en 901"[1411]. No other reference has been found to H�er�esinde being the wife of Comte H�eribert ]I]. Comte H�eribert [I] & his wife had four children: 1. HERIBERT [II] ([880]-23 Feb 943, bur Saint Quentin). *None of the sources so far consulted states explicitly that Heribert [II] and his sister Beatrix were the children of Heribert [I] but this looks probable. *He succeeded his father in [900/907] as Comte de Meaux, de Soissons et de Vermandois. 2. BEATRIX de Vermandois ([880/83]-after 26 Mar 931). *None of the sources so far consulted state explicitly that Heribert [II] and his sister Beatrix were the children of Heribert [I] but this looks probable. *Her birth date range is estimated from her eldest daughter giving birth to her own first child in [915]. *The Historia Francorum Senonensis records that "sororem Herberti" was the wife of "Robertus princeps" who rebelled against Charles III "le Simple" King of France[1412]. Guillaume de Jumi�eges records that Duke Robert's wife was the sister of H�eribert, and that the couple had a son named Hugues[1413]. *The marriage may have been arranged to confirm her father's reconciliation with Eudes King of France, who was her husband's uncle[1414]. Werner suggests [897] as the date of the marriage, on the assumption that it followed the political reconciliation between B�eatrix's father and Robert's uncle[1415]. *As discussed in relation to Robert's first marriage in the document CAPET, there is a possibility that Robert's first wife was still alive in 907, which would of course mean that B�eatrix's marriage took place after that date. *m ([897]) as his second wife, ROBERT Marquis en Neustrie, son of ROBERT ?le Fort? Marquis en Neustrie & his wife --- ([860]-killed in battle near Soissons 15 Jun 923). Comte de Paris 898. He was elected 22 Jun 922 as ROBERT I King of France. 3. [daughter [ADELA] . *Jackman suggests[1416] that the wife of Graf Gebhard [Konradiner] was the daughter of H�eribert [I] Comte de Vermandois, although this appears supported only by onomastic indications. The name of Graf Gebhard's wife is not givenexplicitly in the sources. However, an "Adela" is named in a name-list in the Reichenau memorial book dated [926/32] which appears to include members of the Konradiner family, Jackman suggesting that she is well placed in the list to be Graf Gebhard's wife[1417], although this is not the only possible interpretation of the text. *m GEBHARD Graf im Ufgau, son of EBERHARD Graf in der Ortenau [Konradiner] & his wife Wiltrud --- (-after 15 Jan 947).] 4. [daughter [CUNIGUNDIS] ([890/900]-after 943). *The Vermandois origin of Graf Udo's wife is suggested by the fact that Flodoard refers to the wife of "Uddone [frater Hermanno]" as amita of "Hugo [de Vermandois Archbishop of Reims]"[1418]. The name of Graf Udo's wife is not given explicitly in the sources. However, a "Cunegundis" is named in a name-list in the Reichenau memorial book dated [926/32] which appears to include members of the Konradiner family, Jackman suggesting that she is well placed in the list to be Graf Gebhard's wife[1419], although this is not the only possible interpretation of the text. *Her birth date range is estimated from her estimated marriage date. *m ([915]) UDO Graf in der Wetterau, son of GEBHARD Graf in der Wetterau [Konradiner] & his wife Hidda --- (-12 Dec 949).] References: *[1400] Reginonis Chronicon 818, MGH SS I, p. 567. *[1401] Vita Hludowici Imperatoris, MGH SS II, p. 633. *[1402] Settipani, C. and Kerrebrouck, P. van (1993) La pr�ehistoire des Cap�etiens 481-987, 1�ere partie, M�erovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens (Villeneuve d'Ascq), p. 220. *[1403] Annales Vedastini 896, MGH SS II, p. 530. . *[1404] Settipani (1993), p. 407. *[1405] Nicholas (1992), p. 19. *[1406] Depoin, J. 'Etudes pr�eparatoires �a l'histoire des familles palatines. III. Thibaud le Tricheur fut-il b�atard et mourut-il presque centenaire?', Revue des etudes historiques (1908), p. 595 and footnote 105, cited in Settipani (1993), p. 408. *[1407] 'Obits m�emorables tir�es de n�ecrologes luxembourgeois, r�emois et messins', Revue Mabillon VI (1910-1911), p. 274. *[1408] Settipani (1993), p. 227 footnote 265. *[1409] L� abb�e P�echeur (1851) Histoire de la ville de Guise (Vervins), p. 47, citing "Charte de Raoul �ev�eque de Laon, Lelong, N. Hist. du dioc�ese de Laon, p. 598". *[1410] Settipani (1993), p. 236. *[1411] Barth�elemy, E. de (ed.) (1881) Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Bucilly, Introduction. *[1412] Hugonis Floriacensis, Historia Francorum Senonensis, MGH SS IX, p. 366. *[1413] WJ II.21, p. 58. *[1414] Settipani (1993), p. 407. *[1415] Werner, K. F. (1967) 'Die Nachkommen Karls des Gro�en bis um Jahr 1000 (1.-8. Generation)' Karl der Gro�e, IV, p. 458, cited in Settipani (1993), p. 407. *[1416] Jackman, D. C. (1997) Criticism and Critique, sidelights on the Konradiner (Oxford Unit for Prosopographical Research) pp. 36 and 38. *[1417] Jackman (1997), p. 38. *[1418] Flodoard 946, MGH SS III, p. 393. *[1419] Jackman (1997), p. 38. ------------------- D�od: omkring 902 M�ordad -------------------- From the Francogene page on Herbert Ier de Vermandois: http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/010/010409.php The family of H�eribert Ier de VERMANDOIS and .. [10409] VERMANDOIS (de), H�eribert Ier (P�epin .. & .. [10410]), comte, seigneur de Peronne et de Saint-Quentin, died 902 * married , from .. (France) .., .. (..) 1) B�eatrice, married Robert Ier de FRANCE Bibliographie : M�emoires (Soci�et�e g�en�ealogique canadienne-fran�caise) -------------------- Herbert I of Vermandois *Born: Cir 840 *Marriage: Bertha de Morvois *Died: Cir 905 aged 65 *Cause of his death was murder. *Another name for Herbert was Hubert I. General Notes: *Herbert ble myrdet mellom 900 og 908. Noted events in his life were: *Acceded: Count of Vermandois, 896. *He was a Count of Senlis. *Herbert married Bertha de Morvois. ------------------- # ID: I28880 # Name: Herbert I of Vermandois # Given Name: Herbert # Suffix: I of Vermandois # Prefix: Count # Sex: M # Birth: ABT 0848 in of Vermandois, Neustria # Death: 0902 # Ancestral File #: 9G83-0H # _UID: 01348172DDBDD611BF694445535400000174 1 # Change Date: 1 Sep 2002 at 01:00:00 Father: Pepin Quentin II of Vermandois b: ABT 0818 in of Vermandois, Neustria Mother: of Vermandois b: ABT 0820 in of France Marriage 1 of France b: ABT 0862 in France *Children **1. Has No Children Beatrice de Vermandois b: ABT 0880 in of Vermandois, Neustria **2. Has Children de Vermandois b: ABT 0882 in of Vermandois, Neustria **3. Has No Children Herbert II of Vermandois b: ABT 0884 in of Vermandois, Neustria Sources: 1. Title: #719 (Undefined, and therefore not a source.) -------------------- Om Herbert de Vermandois Herbert I Vermandois (c. 848/ 850 till 907), greve av Vermandois, Lord of Senlis, av Peronne och San Quentin, var son till Pippin av Vermandois. Han gifte sig med Bertha de Morvois. [2] De fick f�oljande: *1. Herbert II Vermandois[3] (c. 880-943) *2. Beatrice av Vermandois (c. 880-931), gift med kung Robert I av Frankrike. *3. Cunigunde av Vermandois (d. 943) *4. Adele av Vermandois *5. Berenger av Vermandois, Greve av Bayeaux vars sonson var Conan jag i Rennes. -------------------- Translated version of the English Wikipedia page on Herbert I of Vermandois: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_I_of_Vermandois Herbert I Vermandois (c. 848/ 850 till 907), greve av Vermandois, Lord of Senlis, av Peronne och San Quentin, var son till Pippin av Vermandois[1]. �Aktenskap och utf�arda Han gifte sig med Bertha de Morvois. [2] De fick f�oljande: *1. Herbert II Vermandois[3] (c. 880-943) *2. Beatrice av Vermandois (c. 880-931), gift med kung Robert I av Frankrike. *3. Cunigunde av Vermandois (d. 943) *4. Adele av Vermandois *5. Berenger av Vermandois, Greve av Bayeaux vars sonson var Conan jag i Rennes. Referenser 1. ^ Ancestral Roots av vissa amerikanska nybyggare som kom till Amerika f�ore 1700, Skapad av Frederick Lewis Weis, forts�atts av Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr, 8th Edition, 2004, utgiven av Genealogiska Publishing, 50:16, 50:17 2. ^ Ancestral Roots av vissa amerikanska nybyggare som kom till Amerika f�ore 1700, Skapad av Frederick Lewis Weis, forts�atts av Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr, 8th Edition, 2004, utgiven av Genealogiska Publishing, 50:17 3. ^ Ancestral Roots av vissa amerikanska nybyggare som kom till Amerika f�ore 1700, Skapad av Frederick Lewis Weis, forts�atts av Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr, 8th Edition, 2004, utgiven av Genealogiska Publishing, 50:17, 50:18 -------------------- From the French Wikipedia page on Herbert I de Vermandois (mostly based on Settipani): http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Ier_de_Vermandois Herbert Ier de Vermandois, n�e vers 850, mort entre 900 et 907. Il fut seigneur de P�eronne et de Saint-Quentin, comte de Soissons, comte de Vermandois et de Meaux de 896 �a sa mort. Il �etait fils de P�epin, petit fils de Bernard, roi d'Italie. Il appara�it en 877 �a la cour du roi Charles le Chauve et est cit�e en 889 comme un fid�ele du roi Eudes. Il devient comte de Vermandois en 896, succ�edant au Nibelungide Th�eodoric, qui �etait probablement son grand-p�ere maternel. Dans les ann�ees qui suivent, il h�erite de plusieurs comt�es (Soissons, Meaux et Vexin), tenus par d'autres Nibelungides. Cet ensemble forma une marche militaire cr�e�ee en 890 pour lutter contre les Normands. Mariage et enfants Son �epouse est inconnue. Des �etudes r�ecentes laissent penser qu'elle se pr�enommait Leutgarde, et qu'elle serait fille du comte de Troyes Adalelme. Il a eu : *1. Herbert II (880 ? 943), comte de Vermandois, de Meaux et de Soissons ; *2. B�eatrice, mari�ee vers 895 �a Robert Ier, roi de France (? 923) ; *3. Cun�egonde, mari�ee vers 915 �a Odon Ier, comte de Wetterau. Herbert Ier de Vermandois Comte de Vermandois *Pr�ec�ed�e par Th�eodoric *Suivi par Herbert II Comte de Meaux *Pr�ec�ed�e par Th�eodebert *Suivi par Herbert II Source Christian Settipani, La Pr�ehistoire des Cap�etiens (Nouvelle histoire g�en�ealogique de l'auguste maison de France, vol. 1), �ed. Patrick van Kerrebrouck, 1993 (ISBN 2-9501509-3-4) --- In English: Herbert I de Vermandois was born about 850 and died between 900 and 907. He was lord of Peronne and St-Quentin, Comte de Soissons, Comte de Vermandois and Meaux from 896 until his death. He was the son of Pippen, grandson of Bernard, King of Italy. He appears in 877 at the court of King Charles the Bald and is cited in 889 as a loyal follower of King Odo. He became Comte de Vermandois in 896, succeeding the Nibelungid leader Theodroic, which was probably his maternal grandfather. In the years that followed, he inherited several counties (Soissons, Meaux, Vexin) that were held by other Nibelungids. The group formed a military march in 890 to defend against the Normans. Marriage and Children: His wife is unknown. Recent studies suggest that Leutgarde was her first name, and that she was the daughter of the Comte de Troyes, Adalelm. They had: *1. Herbert II (880-943), Comte de Vermandois, Meaux, and Soissons. *2. Beatrice, who married Robert I, King of France, in 895 (d. 923). *3. Cunegonde, who married Odo I, Comte de Wetterau, in 915. --------------------------------- From the English Wikipedia page for Herbert I, Count of Vermandois: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_I,_Count_of_Vermandois Herbert I of Vermandois (c. 848/850 ? 907), Count of Vermandois, lord of Senlis, of P�eronne and of Saint Quentin, was the son of Pepin of Vermandois.[1] Marriage and issue He married Bertha de Morvois.[2] They had the following: *1. Herbert II of Vermandois[3] (c. 880-943) *2. B�eatrice of Vermandois (c. 880-931), married King Robert I of France. *3.Cunigunde of Vermandois (d. 943) *4. Adele of Vermandois Count of Vermandois. *Preceded by Pepin *Served 896?907. *Succeeded by Herbert II . References 1.^ Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700, Created by Frederick Lewis Weis, Continued by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., 8th Edition, 2004, Published by Genealogical Publishing, 50:16, 50:17 2.^ Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700, Created by Frederick Lewis Weis, Continued by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., 8th Edition, 2004, Published by Genealogical Publishing, 50:17 3.^ Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700, Created by Frederick Lewis Weis, Continued by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., 8th Edition, 2004, Published by Genealogical Publishing, 50:17, 50:18
b. Note:   BI55385
Note:   Sources for this Information: date: (850) [Ref: ES I.1 #7] 850 [Ref: Settipani Capet p221] abt 840 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p2, Moriarty Plantagenet p6, Redlich CharlemagneDesc p120, Weis AR7 #50] abt 850 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p112, Settipani Capet #8], parents: Pepin & possible dau Theoderic Count of Vermandois [Ref: Settipani Capet p221] Pippin & dau of Count of Vermandois [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p2], father: [Ref: ES I.1 #4, Moriarty Plantagenet p226, Moriarty Plantagenet p6, Redlich CharlemagneDesc p120, Settipani Capet #8, Watney WALLOP #207, Weis AR7 #50], mother: possibly dau Theoderic of Vermandois [Ref: Settipani Capet #8]
c. Note:   DI55385
Note:   Sources for this Information: date: 6 Nov 900/07 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p112] 8.XI 900-907 [Ref: ES I.1 #4, ES I.1 #7] 900-907 [Ref: Settipani Capet #8, Settipani Capet p221] 900/8 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p6] 902 [Ref: Watney WALLOP #207] after 900, before 908 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p1] murdered about 902 [Ref: Redlich CharlemagneDesc p120, Weis AR7 #50] vor 900/907 [Ref: ES III.1 #49]
d. Note:   NF18356
Note:   Sources for this Information: child: [Ref: ES II #10, Moriarty Plantagenet p6, Redlich CharlemagneDesc p120, Weis AR7 #118, Weis AR7 #50, Weis AR7 #53] Sources with Inaccurate Information: names: Herbert I & a daughter of Robert le Fort [Ref: Wurts MCBarons p420] Heribert Count of Vermandois & Liutgardis de Troyes (?) [Ref: Settipani Capet #8]


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