Individual Page


Family
Marriage:
Family
Children:
  1. Dafydd Ap Llywelyn, Prince Of Gwynedd: Death: 1246


Family
Marriage: Children:
  1. Elen (Helena) Verch Llywelyn Fawr: Birth: 1 Nov 1207 in Gwynedd, Wales. Death: Bef 24 Oct 1253 in Stevington, England

  2. Dafydd Of Wales: Birth: Abt 1208. Death: in Aber

  3. Helen : Death: Aft Feb 1295

  4. Margaret Of Wales: Death: 1265


Family
Marriage:
Family
Marriage: Children:
  1. Gladys Dhu Verch Llewelyn: Birth: 1202 in Gwynedd, Wales. Death: 1251 in Windsor, Eng

  2. Gwenllian Las : Death: 1281

  3. Helen De_wales: Death: 1253

  4. Gruffydd Ap Llywelyn: Death: 1 Mar 1244 in London


Sources
1. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Brooke Shields
Text:   Ancestor of
2. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Jennifer Love Hewitt
Text:   Ancestor of
3. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Clint Eastwood
Text:   Ancestor of
4. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Lucille Ball
Text:   Ancestor of
5. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Bing Crosby
Text:   Ancestor of
6. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Humphrey Bogart
Text:   Ancestor of
7. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   John Wayne
Text:   Ancestor of
8. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Dick Van Dyke
Text:   Ancestor of
9. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Richard Gere
Text:   Ancestor of
10. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Walt Disney
Text:   Ancestor of
11. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   George Clooney
Text:   Ancestor of
12. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Val Kilmer
Text:   Ancestor of
13. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Dan Blocker
Text:   Ancestor of
14. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Johnny Depp
Text:   Ancestor of
15. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Elvis Presly
Text:   Ancestor of
16. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Andy Griffith
Text:   Ancestor of
17. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Don Knotts
Text:   Ancestor of
18. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Tom Hanks
Text:   Ancestor of
19. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Mahammad Ali
Text:   Ancestor of
20. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Jim Nabors
Text:   Ancestor of
21. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Shirley Temple
Text:   Ancestor of
22. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Judy Garland
Text:   Ancestor of
23. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Kenny Rogers
Text:   Ancestor of
24. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Anthony Perkins
Text:   Ancestor of
25. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Brad Pitt
Text:   Ancestor of
26. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Miley Cyrus
Text:   Ancestor of
27. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Halle Berry
Text:   Ancestor of
28. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Alice Cooper
Text:   Ancestor of
29. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Fred Gwynne
Text:   Ancestor of
30. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Vincent Price
Text:   Ancestor of
31. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Teri Hatcher
Text:   Ancestor of
32. Title:   Gedcom File provided by
Page:   Mark Willis Ballard, September 11, 2010
33. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Oliver Hardy (of "Laurel & Hardy")
Text:   Ancestor of
34. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   L. Ron Hubbard (Author)
Text:   Ancestor of
35. Title:   Ancestry of David A. Blocher (Maternal)
Author:   David A. Blocher (personal use) dblocher51@yahoo.com
36. Title:   Ancestry of David A. Blocher (Paternal)
Author:   David A. Blocher (personal use) dblocher51@yahoo.com
37. Title:   Ancestry of Jesse James (Outlaw)
Publication:   Personal Use
Author:   David A. Blocher (dblocher51@yahoo.com)
38. Title:   Ancestry of Meriwether Lewis (Explorer)
Note:   One half of the team of 'Lewis & Clark' that mapped out th
Note continued:   e Pacific Northwest.
39. Title:   Ancestor of ....
Page:   Hugh Beaumont
Text:   Ancestor of
40. Title:   [Ancestry of Mark Willis Ballard]
Page:   Paternal Lineage
Text:   Ancestry of Mark Willis Ballard
41. Title:   [Ancestry of Mark Willis Ballard]
Page:   Maternal Lineage
Text:   Ancestry of Mark Willis Ballard
42. Title:   [Ancestry of Paris Hilton (Actress)]
Text:   Ancestry of Paris Hilton (Actress)
43. Title:   [Ancestry of President Barack Obama]
Text:   Ancestry of President Barack Obama
44. Title:   [Ancestry of Kimberly Jo Brownlee]
Page:   Paternal Lineage
Text:   Ancestry of Kimberly Jo Brownlee
45. Title:   [Ancestry of Benedict Arnold (Rev. Traitor)]
Text:   Ancestry of Benedict Arnold (Rev. Traitor)
46. Title:   Ancestry of Laura Ingles Wilder
47. Title:   Ancestry of Richard Gere
48. Title:   Ancestry of Dean Ball
Page:   Proprietor of Galaxy Comics
49. Title:   Ancestry of Fred Gwynne
Page:   Herman Munster of the TV Sitcom "The Munsters"
50. Title:   Ancestry of Linda Joyce Neely
Page:   Genealogy Colaborator
Publication:   Created for Personal use, no publication.
51. Title:   From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Notes
a. Note:   NI54766
Note:   He was the Prince of Wales. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, (Llywelyn Fawr or Llywelyn the Great: 1173-1240) can justly be called the greatest of the medieval Welsh kings. By 1202, he had taken advantage of the quarrels of his uncles and had become ruler of the kingdom of Gwynedd. Further successes in Deheubarth, after the death of the Lord Rhys, and in Powys made him the most powerful of all the Welsh rulers, though it was Gruffudd ap Llwyelyn who is remembered as the only native monarch to rule over all of Wales. Peter N. Williams, Ph.D. He was the Prince of Wales. From Encyclopedia Britannica Online; article entitled Llywelyn AP Iorwerth: Called "LLYWELYN THE GREAT, Welsh prince, the most outstanding native ruler to appear in Wales before the region came under English rule in 1283. "Llywelyn was the grandson of Owain Gwynedd (d. 1170), a powerful ruler of Gwynedd in northern Wales. While still a child, Llywelyn was exiled by his uncle, David. He deposed David in 1194 and by 1202 had brought most of northern Wales under his control. In 1205 he married Joan, the illegitimate daughter of England's King John (reigned 1199-1216). Nevertheless, when Llywelyn's attempts to extend his authority into southern Wales threatened English possessions, John invaded Wales (1211) and overran most of Gwynedd. The prince soon won back his lands. He secured his position by allying with John's powerful baronial opponents, and his actions helped the barons influence the king's signing of Magna Carta (1215). "Two years after the accession of King Henry III (reigned 1216-72), the English acknowledged that Llywelyn controlled almost all of Wales, but by 1223 they had forced him to withdraw to the north behind a boundary between Cardigan, Dyfed, and Builth, Powys. Many Welsh princes in the south, however, still accepted his overlordship. In his last years the aged Llywelyn turned his government over to his son David (prince of Gwynedd). When Llywelyn died, a chronicler described him as prince of Wales, which he was in fact, if not in law." He was a Prince of Gwynedd and eventually ruler of much of Wales. Although he is often referred to as a Prince of Wales, his official title was "Prince of Aberffraw and Lord of Snowdonia" (the first "official" Prince of Wales was his son, Dafydd). He was also known as Llywelyn the Great or, in Welsh, Llywelyn Fawr. Llywelyn was born in 1173, possibly at Dolwyddelan, the grandson of Owa in Gwynedd. Little is known about his father Iorwerth Drwyndwn, who may have died when Llywelyn was an infant. Gwynedd was ruled by his uncles Dafydd ab Owain Gwynedd and Rhodriab Owain Gwynedd, but by 1188 the young Llywelyn was already in arms against them. In 1194, with the aid of his cousins Gruffydd and Maredydd ap Cynan, he defeated Dafydd in a battle at the mouth of the river Conwy. Rhodri died in 1195 and in 1197 Llywelyn captured Dafydd and expelled him from Gwynedd to spend the remainder of his life in England. Llywelyn went on to capture the castle of Mold in 1199. He consolidated this conquest in 1205 by marrying Joan of England, illegitimate daughter of King John of England. His main rival in Wales was Gwenwynwyn ab Owain of Powys. When Gwenwynwyn fell out with King John in 1208, Llywelyn took advantage of the situation to annex southern Powys and northern Ceredigion. In 1210 however relations between Llywelyn and King John de teriorated, and John restored Gwenwynwyn to the rule of southern Powys. In 1211 John invaded Gwynedd and Llywelyn was forced to come to terms, losing all his lands east of the river Conwy. In alliance with other Welsh princes, Llywelyn was able to recover many of these lands in 1212 and took the castles of Deganwy and Rhuddlan in 1213. Llywelyn allied himself with the barons who forced John to sign the Magna Carta. He had now established himself as the leader of the independent princes of Wales and captured Cardigan and Cilgerran. At Aberdyfi in 1216 he held what could be regarded as a Welsh parliament to adjudicate on the territorial claims of the lesser princes. Gwenwynwn of Powys allied himself with King John the same year, but was again driven from southern Powys by Llywelyn, this time for good. Following King John's death Llywelyn concluded a treaty, the Peace of Worcester, with his successor Henry III whereby he was confirmed in possession of all his recent conquests. From then until his death Llywelyn was a dominant force in Wales, though there were further outbreaks of hostilities with marcher lords such as Hubert de Burgh and sometimes with the king. Llywelyn was a notable castle builder, his castles at Deganwy and Castelly Bere being among the best examples. Llywelyn's marriage to Joan has an unusual history. Following the birth of a legitimate heir, Dafydd ap Llywelyn, and a daughter, Elen (who was married off to the Norman Earl of Chester), Joan committed adultery with William de Braose or Breos, a Norman noble of south Wales who had allied himself with Llywelyn by the marriage of his daughter, Isabella, to Llywelyn's son, Dafydd. On learning of the affair in 1230, Llywelyn executed de Braose and Joan was imprisoned. Some time later, she was forgiven and restored to her position as princess, dying in 1237. Llywelyn himself died in 1240 and was buried at the abbey of Aberconwy. His stone coffin can be seen in Llanrwst parish church. In his later years Llywelyn had devoted much effort to ensuring that his only legitimate son Dafydd would inherit the whole of Gwynedd, rather than dividing it with his older but illegitimate brother, Gruffydd who according to Welsh law had equal rights of inheritance. Llywelyn had departed from tradition by naming Dafydd as his sole heir, as he recognised the Welsh custom of dividing inheritance equally amongst all male sons prevented a cohesive polity from forming, preventing a united Wales. Gruffydd was killed attempting to escape from the Tower of London in 1244, leaving the field clear for Dafydd, but Dafydd himself died without heirs in 1246, and was eventually succeeded by his nephew, Gruffydd's son, Llywelyn the Last. (Wikipedia) King of Wales ------------------- "FAWR (THE GREAT) OF WALES""LLYWELYN AP IORWORTH"; PRINCE OF WALES; KING OF WALES 1194-1240 (RULER OF ALL WALES) Reitwiesner, William Addams, The Children of Joan, Princess of North Wales, The Genealogist (APSG), vol 1 no 1 (1981), p80-95. Nypl APA-82-1000 v1. RESEARCH NOTES: Prince of North Wales [Ref: Weis AR7 #176, Weis AR7 #27, CP II p302, CP II p304, CP II p307] Prince of Wales [Ref: Moncreiffe RoyalAnc p10] Prince of Gwynedd [Ref: Tapsell Dynasties p178] 1173-1240: Prince of North Wales [Ref: Weis AR7 #176, Weis AR7 #27] abt 1191: Llywelyn was betrothed to the daughter of the King of Man when she was aged eight, with her consent, and that of her relatives. But Llywelyn then declined to take her to wife [having been betrothed to her, but not having had carnal knowledge of her at that time], so she was betrothed to his uncle Rhodri. [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] The Pope found, however, that as Llywelyn and the girl were initially betrothed when she was aged eight, she could not have given proper consent. Also, the union was only 'per verbis de futuro,' or that they intended to wed sometime in the future. They had not been properly blessed [before the church by a priest], and they had never lived together, but had been separated by land and sea [hence their union was not consummated]. This means Llywelyn was not properly married to the girl prior to the time she was properly wed to his uncle Rhodri. [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] abt 1192: the King of Man declined to send her to Wales at the time appointed, so Llywelyn, without any opposition, took to wife a sister of the Earl of Chester [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] 1194: "And king Richard returned from Jerusalem. And then Llywelyn, son of Iorwerth, and Rhodri, son of Owain, and the two sons of Cynan, son of Owain, combined against David, son of Owain Gwynedd, and oppugned all the territory of David, except three castles." [Brut, 240-1.] [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] 1194-1240: Prince of Gwynedd [Ref: Tapsell Dynasties p178] abt 1195: after Rhodri's death, Llywelyn asked the King of Man if he could marry the king's younger daughter (which might indicate Llywelyn knew his uncle had carnal knowledge of the elder girl). But she was already coupled with another man, so Llywelyn, with the permission of the judges, coupled with the Pincess of the Isles [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] "Calendar of entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great Britain and Ireland - Papal Letters, vol. I, A.D. 1198-1304", edited by W. H. Bliss (Public Record Office, 1893; Kraus reprint, 1971). p. 8 (Regesta vol. IV) 7 Kal. Dec [1199]. Lateran. (f. 200) Mandate to the bishop of Man, the Archdeacon of Bangor, and the prior of the isle of Glannan, to take cognisance of and decide the case of R. prince of Nort Wales, who wishes to marry a daughter of the prince of the Isles previously betrothed to his uncle. [Opp. ed. Migne, i. 791] [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 8/2/1999-185741] [From: C.R. Cheney and Mary G. Cheney, The Letters of Pope Innocent III, published 1967] pg, 29: Letter dated 24 Nov. 1199. To the bp. of Man, the archdn. of Bangor, and the prior of the island of Glannach, Mandate to hear and decide case, according to the instructions given, concerning the proposed marriage of R (recte Llywelyn) prince of North Wales with the daughter of the prince of the Isles, formerly bethrothed to his uncle (Rhodri). [Ref: Douglas Richardson SGM 9/20/1999-165033] "Calendar of entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great Britain and Ireland - Papal Letters, vol. I, A.D. 1198-1304", edited by W. H. Bliss (Public Record Office, 1893; Kraus reprint, 1971). p. 13 (Regesta vol. V) 12 Kal. May [1203]. Lateran. (f. 57d.) Mandate to the abbot of Abenton, and prior of Henli, and Master M. canon of Berlinton, in the diocese of Bangor, to cause to be observed the sentence about the marriage between the daughter of the prince of the Isles and L[ewellin], prince of Nort Wales. [Opp. ed. Migne, ii. 49.] [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 8/2/1999-185741] [From: C.R. Cheney and Mary G. Cheney, The Letters of Pope Innocent III, published 1967] pg.77: Letter dated 19 April 1203. To the abbot of Aberconway, the prior of Bardsey, and Mr. M, canon of Beddgelert, of dioc. Bangor. Confirms the judgement of delegates in the case committed to them, declaring that for the sake of restoring peace L(lywelyn) prince of North Wales might marry the daughter of the prince of the Isles. They had been bethrothed when she was eight years old, but later she was bethrothed against her will to his uncle, now dead. Mandate to cause the sentence to be observed, unless there be reasonable objection. [Ref: Douglas Richardson SGM 9/20/1999-165033] "Calendar of entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great Britain and Ireland - Papal Letters, vol. I, A.D. 1198-1304", edited by W. H. Bliss (Public Record Office, 1893; Kraus reprint, 1971). p. 19 (Regesta vol. V) 13 Kal. Mar. [1205] St. Peter's. (f. 173d) Mandate to the bishops of Ely, Norwich, and St. Asaph, to bring to an end the cause relating to the marriage of the daughter of the prince of the Isles with L. prince of North Wales. [Opp. ed. Migne, ii. 534.] [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 8/2/1999-185741] [From: C.R. Cheney and Mary G. Cheney, The Letters of Pope Innocent III, published 1967] pg. 100: Letter dated 17 Feb. 1205. To (Eustace), bishop of Ely, (John), bishop of Norwich, and (Reiner), bishop of St. Asaph. Recounts the earlier history of the marriage-case concerning L(lywelyn) prince of North Wales and the daughter of the prince of the Isles. The last judges were not satisfied that the marriage of Llywelyn was valid and sent to the pope further evidence, including evidence that Llywelyn, when betrothed to the girl, had married a sister of (Ranulf) Earl of Chester. As a result the pope decides there has been no valid marriage between Llywelyn and the daughter of the prince of the Isles. He orders the addressees to summon the parties and give judgement accordingly. [Ref: Douglas Richardson SGM 9/20/1999-165033] there is no mention of issue--no declaration of children born, or the legitimacy of children to be born. This would clearly indicate that the Pope had no knowledge of any issue of Llywelyn by the daughter of the King of Man, and since appeal was still being made to the Pope before 1205 [the date of the third letter], local authorities may have prevented any such physical union until a final word could be received. [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] Llywelyn did not wait long to negotiate another marriage. He was espoused to Joan in 1205, and married in 1206. One might argue that he had already been pursuing possible arrangements with King John before the Pope sent this declaration, and that Llywelyn's witnesses might have been so influenced, or the Pope with the King of England's influence might have tried to find reasons to invalidate the cause of marriage between Llywelyn and the daughter of the King of Man. [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] 1201?: first he was a friend of King John, whose daughter, Joan (died 1237) he married as his second wife, but the friendship soon ended [Ref: Wurts MCBarons p435] 1211: John reduced Llewellyn to submission. [Ref: Wurts MCBarons p435] 1212: Llewellyn recovered all his losses in North Wales [Ref: Wurts MCBarons p435] his rights were secured by special clauses in the Magna Charta [Ref: Moncreiffe RoyalAnc p10] 1215: took Shrewsbury. His rising had been encouraged by the Pope, by France and by the English Barons. [Ref: Wurts MCBarons p435] 1239: he retired into a Cistercian Monastery. [Ref: Wurts MCBarons p435] died as a monk [Ref: Moncreiffe RoyalAnc p10] Obiit magnus Achilles secundus, dominus scilicet Lewelinus filius Gervaisi filii Owini Guynet, tunc princeps Walliae [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 7/27/1997-062054] Welsh evidence making Llywelyn the son of a daughter of Madog ap Maredudd, while not ideal, is pretty strong. The statement appears in numerous Welsh genealogical manuscripts, of which the earliest is Jesus College MS. 20 (edited in Bartrum's "Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts"), section 29, which states "Llewelyn m. Marereda merch Madawc m. Maredud" immediately following section 28, which is Llywelyn's paternal ancestry ("Llywelyn m. Iorwerth m. Ewein Gwyned m. Gruffud m. Cynan"). In his introduction to the manuscript, Bartrum states that the latest view is that the manuscript was written by somebody who learned how to write ca. 1340, but that the source on which the manuscript was based was written prior to 1200 (based on the orthography of the surviving text). The fact that Llywelyn ap Iorwerth was the latest person mentioned in the Jesus College genealogies also supports the view that it was originally written down during his lifetime, making it a good source for the identity of his mother. [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 7/10/1998-044344] He was betrothed to, and apparently married a daughter of a "prince" of the Isles. The third letter from Pope Innocent actually refers to Rhodri as the King of Man [rege Manniae] and Rhodri's travels to and from Man, so there is no question about who her father was in that sense. 'Prince of the Isles' was used, not LORD [dominus]. This woman had previously been betrothed to one of Llewelyn's uncles, Rhodri. Not only was she betrothed to Rhodri, she was properly married to him in the church door [in facie Ecclesiae], and slept with him in the same bed for quite some time, so the Pope concluded that though her nurse, parents, etc., denied after his death that they had intercourse, the Pope had to declare as a matter of law that they did know each other carnally. If the chronological accounts given in the third letter are correct, not part of the falsified information, she would have been born about 1183, since Rhodri died in 1195. [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/14/1999-205321] What follows is a series of posts on the marriage negotiations and marriages of Rhodri ap Owain Gwynedd and his nephew Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales, to the sister of the Earl of Chester and the daughter of the King of Man. John Carmi Parsons was kind enough to take time to summarize the third letter of Pope Innocent III [concerning the negotiations for marriage between Llywelyn and the daughter of the King of Man]. As this is long, further commentary will follow in separate posts. I have also inserted a few comments in this post {enclosed like this}. << ..... ELIENSI ..... NORVICENSI, ET ..... DE SANCTO ASAPH, EPISOPIS. Ut causam matrimonii, inter filiam principis Insularum, et principem NorwalliB, vertentem terminent. Apud S. Petrum, XIII Kal. Martii. Cum olim dilectus filius, nobilis vir ... princeps NorwalliB, a nobis humiliter postulasset, ut de nostra sibi permissione liceret filiam nobilis viri ... principis Insularum, quam se asseruit subarrasse, ducere in uxorem, non obstante, quod ... patruo ejus eadem mulier infra nubiles annos fuerat desponsata, cum neuter eorum transduxisset eamdem, honB memoriB ... Mannen. episcopo, et dilectis filiis ... archidiacono, et ... priori de Insula Glannav. sub certa forma causam ipsam commisimus terminandam.>> To the Bishops of Ely [Eustace], Norwich [John de Gray] and St. Asaph [Reiner] This preamble indicates that the uncle was betrothed to the girl before she was of nubile age, but neither the uncle nor the prince himself had actually ever taken her to wife. <<Partibus itaque in prBdictorum judicum prBsentia constitutis, sicut ipsi per suas nobis litteras intimarunt, per testes ejus constitut evidenter, quod prBdicta puella, octo annis expletis, ab L. principe NorwalliB, tam suo quam suorum assensu parentum, fuerat subarrhata, sed, eo ex necessitate ipsam transducere differente, ejusdem L. patruus ipsam sine consensu ejus postmodum desponsavit, qui, ea nequaquam carnaliter cognita, viam fuerat universB carnis ingressus.>> Witnesses testified that the girl was betrothed, aged 8, to Llywelyn with her consent as well as that of her relatives; but because of subsequent necessity [I assume political] he declined to take her to wife, and the uncle was betrothed to her without her consent, but he [the uncle] died before having carnal knowledge of her. {That the uncle died without knowing her appears to be false testimony, the motive for which was an attempt to avoid any impdeiment that would have prevented her from being able to marry Llywelyn.} <<Judices ergo prBdicti, communicato prudentium virorum consilio, prBdicto NorwalliB principi auctoritate apostolica concesserunt, ut puellam desponsaret eamdem, ne discordia inter ipsum et parentes puellB olim exorta, et tunc sopita, iterum oriretur.>> On the counsel of prudent men, the appointed judges conceded to the prince by apostolic authority that he might marry the girl, lest the former discord between himself and her relatives, which has now been put to rest, break forth again. <<Nos igitur, eorumdem sententiam, nisi aliud rationabile quidem obstaret, volentes firmitatem debitam obtinere, dilectis filiis ... abbati de Abenton ... priori de Henli, et magistro M. canonico de Berlinton.B Bangorensis diBceseos, dedimus in mandatis, ut ipsam facerent, appellatione remota, per censuram ecclesiasticam firmiter observari.B Abbas vero prBdictus, et conjudices sui, propter conditionem in litteris nostris expressam, super matrimonio illo, sicut in eorum litteris perspeximus contineri, studiose ac sollicite, receptis testibus, veritatem inquirere curaverunt.B Habitis ergo quatuor productionibus testium, et redactis in scriptis despositionibus eorumdem, ea, quB ad decisionem causB credebant sufficere, de utriusque partis assensu, nobis transmittere curaverunt, ut nobis rei veritas eluceret, consuleretur conscientiB principis supradicti, qui priores judices, et prBsertim archidiaconum et priorem dicebat juris ignaros, et litteras nostras per falsam suggestionem obtentas, nec se credebat cum eadem puella posse salvari, quB patruo ejus tradita in uxorem in uno lecto sBpius fuerat cum eodem.B Nos igitur, depositionibus testium diligenter inspectis, probatum invenimus per easdem, quod idem L. puellam ipsam ducturum se juraverat in uxorem, sed nec ipsam transduxerat, nec probabatur per testes, quod benedictus fuerit, aut in una terra fuerit cum eadem, utpote quorum terras mare medium dividebat.B In actis quoque judicum perspeximus contineri, quod suffucientibus testimoniis probatum fuerat coram ipsis, octo annorum fuisse puellam, quando idem L. eam juraverat se ducturum.>> There have been conflicting claims that L. did in fact sleep with her *while she was betrothed to his uncle*, but after diligent inspection the pope finds that L. and the girl were never even in the same region together during that betrothal, but remained separated both by land and by sea. {This appears to refer to the time of Llywelyn's original betrothal when she was about eight.} <<Cumque pater puell filiam suam in Norwalliam ad statutum terminum ducere distulisset, idem L. sororem nobilis viri ... comitis Castri, sine contradictione qualibet, circa fluem illius anni duxerat in uxorem, et R. patruus ejus puellam sponsaverat memoratum, et post annum in facie Ecclesi, cum illa contraxerat, et a principio Maii usque ad festum beati Viti martyris, quoties ei placuit, in eodem lecto jacuerat cum eadem, et in Walliam fuerat elapso tempore aliquanto reversus. Cterum, transacto secundo anno a tempore desponsationis, primo vero a tempore nuptiarum, in Manniam rediens, pacifice cohabitavit uxori, et eam secum per terram etmare deduxit, sed, ea tandem sub parentum cura relicta, in Walliam rediit, ibique fuit viam univers carnis ingressus.>> About a year after the girl's father declined to send her to Wales at the appointed time, Llywelyn instead, without anyone opposing it, "took to wife" a sister of the earl of Chester. Then the uncle "took to wife" the other girl, at first as his betrothed and then a year later married her at the church door; and from the first of May until the feast of St Vitus {15 June}, as many times as pleased him, he lay in the same bed with her. After a little time he returned to Wales and stayed there a year. He then returned to the Isle of Man, peacefully lived there with his wife, and returned to Wales leaving his wife in the care of her parents. Upon reaching Wales again, he died. {The Handbook of British Chronology states that Rhodri died in 1095. As one account says Llywelyn declined to take her towife, but another account states that her father declined to send her at the appointed time, in may indicate which story was given by which side.} <<Ex dictis igitur testium collegerunt judices supradicti, quod prdictus R. puellam eamdem a tempore desponsationis habuerat per triennium, et tres menses, sed per biennium, duos menses, et dies quindecim a tempore nuptiarum; fuit autem diversitas inter testes, cum quidam, ex eo quod puella erat tunc temporis macilenta, quod non fuisset carnaliter cognita existamarent, licet esset tate nubilis, et toro matura; quidam autem nescire se dicerent, si carnaliter cognita exstitisset, quidam vero crederent, quod cognita non fuisset, quidam vero ab ipso R. assererent se audisse, quod eam carnaliter non cognovit; licet adjicerent se nescire, utrum postmodum fuerit cum eadem.>> However there continues to be considerable disagreement among witnesses as to whether the uncle actually ever had carnal knowledge of his wife, to whom he was tied for 3 years and 3 months from the time of their betrothal, and for 2 years, 2 months and 15 days from their marriage at the church door. [NB--this leaves no doubt that the uncle and the girl were properly married; but it's still not clear whether they had carnal knowledge of each other.] <<Verum, prdictus episcopus Manni, sicut in scriptis ejus, et suorum conjudicum secundo delegati perspexerant contineri, conjudicibus ejus absentibus, tam ex ipsius puell quam parentum, nutricis et famularum ejus didicit juramentis, quod prdictus R. puellam ipsam carnaliter non cognovit.>> By the testimony of several witnesses, including the girl herself, her relatives and her nurse, the pope has heard that the uncle R. never knew her carnally. <<Patruo ergo viam univers carnis ingresso, cum prdictus L. a rege Manni juniorem filiam in conjugum postulasset, nec id obtinere potuisset ab eo, utpote cum ipsa fuisset alii copulata, spedictam puellam de assensu priorum judicum sibi postmodum copulavit.>> After the uncle's death, L. asked the king of Man if he might not marry his younger daughter, but as she was already coupled with another, L. with the permission of the aforesaid judges coupled with the oft-mentioned girl. <<Constitit igitur ex prdictis quod inter spedictum L. et prdictam puellam, cum octo esset annorum cujus tamen consensus non invenitur expressus, antequam cum ipsa ejusdem L. patruus contraxisset, tantummodo per verba de futuro fuerunt sponsalia celebrata, ita quod nec idem L. transduxerat aut subarrharat eamdem, nec cum ipsa fuerat benedictus, quin imo nec in eadem fuerant terra simul, utpote quorum terras, sicut superius est expressum, mare medium dividebat: unde prsumi non potest quod aliquid attentarint, quod non potuerint consummare.>> However the pope determines that as the girl was only aged 8 when all this started, she could not have given proper consent; the union with L was only *per verbis de futuro*. They were never blessed together as husband and wife. The pope finds that they never lived together but were divided by land and by sea, and their union was not consummated. <<Constitit etiam per prdicta quod puella ipsa in nono anno spedicto R. desponsata fuerat, et in decimo ab ipso transducta, et ultra biennium in uno lecto frequenter fuerat cum eodem.>> In her 9th year she was espoused to uncle R., in her tenth year married him, and for two years was often in his bed. <<Unde colligitur manifeste quod prim litter per falsam fuerunt suggestionem obtent, cum contineatur in illis quod neuter eorum transduxit eamdem. Cumque tandin simul in uno lecto fuissent, de jure prsumitur quod facti fuerint una caro, cum etiam in duodecimo anno, in quo liberum et legitimum habet in hujusmodi puella consensum, voluntarie fuerit cum eodem, patet eam in ejus matrimonium legitime consensisse, nec potuisse contrahere postmodum cum nepote.>> Therefore it is clear that earlier letters on this matter were false; as uncle R. and the girl were in bed together, it must by law be presumed that they became one flesh (i.e., consummated the marriage), and since she was then in her 12th year and could give legitimate consent, that she was willingly with him. Therefore her consent was legitimate and she cannot now legitimately contract matrimony with his nephew. <<Unde idem L. ducere ipsam de jure non potuit, et, si de facto ipsam sibi post mortem patrui copulavit, ab ea est merito separandus. Ideoque fraternitati vestr per apostolica scripta mandamus, quatenus, vocatis qui propter hoc fuerint evocandi, causam ipsam secundum prcriptam formam, appellatione postposita, terminetis, facientes, etc.>> The pope therefore orders the aforementioned commissioners to terminate the said business without the possibility of appeal and [etc.--to declare that the two cannot marry and to order their separation if they have in fact wed]. So to summarize and add commentary: Llywelyn was betrothed to the daughter of the King of Man when she was aged eight, with her consent, and that of her relatives. But Llywelyn then declined to take her to wife [having been betrothed to her, but not having had carnal knowledge of her at that time], so she was betrothed to his uncle Rhodri. It was claimed that Rhodri died without having carnal knowledge of her [--had it been found that she and Rhodri had indeed had sexual intercourse, she could not then (after Rhodri's death) marry Llywelyn]. After Rhodri's death, after inquiry, judges appointed by the Pope declared that Llywelyn might be betrothed to her. There had been conflicting claims that Llywelyn had slept with the girl while she was betrothed to his uncle, but the Pope found that Llywelyn and the girl were not even in the same region during that period. Recounting particulars from the beginning, Llywelyn was betrothed to the girl when she was about eight. About a year after, the King of Man declined to send her to Wales at the time appointed, so Llywelyn, without any opposition, took to wife a sister of the Earl of Chester. [This would have been a politically advantageous match, and--if this testimony is accurate--would have taken place about the ninth year of age of the daughter of the King of Man, or ca. 1192 (see below).] Then Rhodri was, first [in her ninth year], betrothed to the Princess of Man, and a year later [in her tenth year] married her in the church door [a proper legal marriage]. After this public union, Rhodri lay in the same bed with her as often as he pleased between 1 May and the feast of St. Vitus [June 15]. He then returned to Wales. After about one year, Rhodri returned to Man, again living [and sleeping] with her peacefully. Leaving her in her parents' care, he returned again to Wales, where he died [apparently in 1195]. The letter then recapitulates, stating that Rhodri was tied to the girl for three years, three months from the time of their betrothal, and two years, two months, fifteen days from the time of their marriage at the church door [which would agree with the statement that they were married at the church about one year after betrothal]. By taking this chronology into account, if we subtract her age from the year of Rhodri's death, we come to a probable birth year of about 1183. The girl, her nurse, and her relatives all testified that Rhodri never knew her carnally [here John and I both thought of the claim asserted by Catharine of Aragon]. This claim was necessary, or Llywelyn would have been barred from marrying her. After Rhodri's death [in 1195], Llywelyn asked the King of Man if he could marry the king's younger daughter [this might indicate Llywelyn knew his uncle had carnal knowledge of the elder girl]. But she was already coupled with another man, so Llywelyn, with the permission of the aforesaid judges, 'coupled' with the Princess of the Isles that we have been discussing. [Now here we have a difficulty in interpretation. The verb 'copulare' can be ambiguous in meaning. Here it seems to indicate that Llywelyn and the girl were physically united in sexual intercourse, but it can also mean joining together in other senses, such as being grouped together (in the same place, like captives), grouped (like notes), to unite by ties of marriage, to reconcile, to bind or oblige, to form a tie of peace or friendship, or even to unite in spiritual love (Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources)]. The Pope found, however, that as Llywelyn and the girl were initially betrothed when she was aged eight, she could not have given proper consent. Also, the union was only 'per verbis de futuro,' or that they intended to wed sometime in the future. They had not been properly blessed [before the church by a priest], and they had never lived together, but had been separated by land and sea [hence their union ws not consummated]. This means Llywelyn was not properly married to the girl prior to the time she was properly wed to his uncle Rhodri. She was espoused to his uncle Rhodri in her ninth year, married to him in her tenth year, and often in his bed after that for a period of two years [before he died in 1195]. It was clear to the Pope that there was false testimony, and that the claims that Rhodri never carnally knew the girl were untrue. By law, it must be presumed that since she and Rhodri lay in bed together they became one flesh [consummated the marriage], and that since she was in her twelfth year and was with Rhodri willingly, she thus indicated her consent. As her marriage with Rhodri was by law complete and legitimate, the girl 'cannot now legitimately contract marriage' with Llywelyn. The Pope therefore orders the commissioners to terminate the business--he declares that Llywelyn and the girl cannot marry, and orders their separation if they have in fact been [since] wed. This implies to me that at the time Pope Innocent III sent this letter, he was not aware of any proper marriage between Llywelyn and the Princess. I am confused by the implication that Llywelyn and the girl coupled [joined in physical union] at some point after Rhodri's death. That, and the girl's willingness at the time should have constituted marriage. The Pope would have then had to declare that the marriage was invalid and quash it. But that is not what seems to be said at the end in the declaration. One final important point. If any children had been born to the union, a determination would have had to be made as to their legitimacy. If the girl had borne any children fathered by Rhodri [even a miscarriage], it would have been evidence of consummation and mentioned. If Llywelyn had fathered a child, having had the approbation of ecclesiastical judges [letter two, discussed before on this group], it could be argued that they would be declared legitimate. But if the bride lied about consummating her marriage with Rhodri, it might be that any such child by Llywelyn would be declared illegitimate. The point is, there is no mention of issue--no declaration of children born, or the legitimacy of children to be born. This would clearly indicate that the Pope had no knowledge of any issue of Llywelyn by the daughter of the King of Man, and since appeal was still being made to the Pope before 1205 [the date of this letter], local authorities may have prevented any such physical union until a final word could be received. Llywelyn did not wait long to negotiate another marriage. He was espoused to Joan in 1205, and married in 1206. One might argue that he had already been pursuing possible arrangements with King John before the Pope sent this declaration, and that Llywelyn's witnesses might have been so influenced, or the Pope with the King of England's influence might have tried to find reasons to invalidate the cause of marriage between Llywelyn and the daughter of the King of Man. The above would also indicate that the King of Man had two daughters, the elder [who married Rhodri], born about 1183, and a younger daughter, already coupled [at least espoused] by 1196. As Llywelyn's betrothal to the daughter of the King of Man was not valid, and as he had, without any opposition, married the sister of the Earl of Chester [apparently] the following year, it would indicate that she was dead by the time Llywelyn began negotiations to marry a daughter of the King of Man anew. We know he resumed this by 1199, and continued until 1205. He could not have begun negotiations for marriage to the younger or elder daughter of the King of Man while lawfully married to another, and there is no declaration that his marriage to the sister of the Earl of Chester was invalid. If this is correct, Llywelyn would have married the sister of the Earl of Chester sometime around 1192, and she must have been dead, without issue that survived beyond 1232 [if she was legitimate] by 1199. Also, if Llywelyn had had any issue which survived to adulthood by either of these women, it would be likely they would be mentioned somewhere in the Welsh pedigrees [as were children of Owain Gwynedd, Iorwerth ap Owain, etc.] Of course, the concusions in the above posts depend on the accuracy of the testimony in the Papal letters and other sources. The sons and grandsons of Owain Gwynedd [son of Gruffudd ap Cynan], ruler over Gwynedd [North Wales], who died 1170 [Bartrum says he was b. ca. 1100], are the main players in this story. Owain had matches with at least nine women. Christina/Cristin f. Gronwy was considered a legitimate wife. The following children are given in the _Handbook of British Chronology_, after which are additional children listed in Bartum's Welsh Genealogies [Gruffudd ap Cynan, various charts]: (1) Rhun, d. 1146. (2) Hywel, killed 1170 [son by Ffynnod Wyddeles ("an Irish woman"); issue: Caswallon]. (3) Iorwerth Drwyndwn [flatnose], son by the first 'wife' Gwladus f. Llywarch, was father of LLYWELYN ap Iorwerth [both the _Handbook of British Chronology_ and Lloyd's _History of Wales_ state that Llywelyn was born in 1173] and Adda ap Iorwerth. He married the daughter of Madog ap Meredydd, Prince of Powys. One account states that Iorwerth was excluded from his share in the succession because of his deformity, and was driven out of Gwynedd, meeting an untimely demise in Powys. But an elegy upon him by Seisyll Brffwrch calls him ruler of Arfon, and his grave is said to be in the church of Llandudclud [now Penmachno] at the head of the Conway Valley. Lloyd also thinks there is good reason to believe he held the commote of Nanconwy with the castle of Dolwyddelan. Wynne says Iorwerth received the hundreds of Nanconwy and Ardydwy as his inheritance, and that he dwelled at the castle of Dolwyddelan, where it is though his son Llywelyn might have been born. (4) Maelgwn [son by Gwladus], who received Anglesey as his portion. (5) David ap Owain [son by his second wife Christina] eventually won Gwynedd from his other male relatives in 1175, was dispossessed in 1194, and died in exile in 1203. David had married, 1174, Emma, natural daughter of Geoffrey of Anjou. (6) RHODRI ap Owain [son by Christiana], married (1) a daughter of Rhys ap Gruffudd of Deheubarth, and (2) the elder daughter of the King of Man. Rhodr i died in 1195. (7) Cynan ap Owain [mother not known], died in 1174. He had sons Gruffudd ap Cynan [d. 1200] and Maredudd [d. 1212]. (a) Angharad [daughter by Cristin], married Gruffudd Maelor. (b) Gwenllian [Gwenllian I, daughter by Gwladus], married Owain Cyneiliog. [other children listed by Bartum, order not known:] (8) Rhirid, married a daughter of Iarll Desmond [Desmond, in Ireland?] (9) Iago [son by Mofudd f. Elfan ap Sandde]. (10) Philip [son by Mofudd f. Elfan ap Sandde]. (11) Madog. (12) Einion. (13) Cynwrig [I]. (14) Cynwrig [II] (15) Cadell. (c) Gwenllian [II]. Bartrum shows that Rhodri ap Owain Gwynedd married, in 1188, Gwenllian ferch Arglwydd Rhys, by whom she had two sons, Gruffudd and Cynan. Bartrum states that Rhodri then married, in 1193, a child, daughter of Reginald, King of Man, but they had no issue. Bartrum also attribues two other sons to Rhodri, Thomas and Einion, but the identity of their mother is unknown (concubine). Sources for the following chronology and events: Sir John Edward Lloyd, _History of Wales_ (1948, first published 1911) 2:549-54, 564-6, 587-90, 617. _Brut y tywysogion; or the Chronicle of the Princes_ (London, 1860), ed. John Williams ab Ithel, 238-41. _Handbook of British Chronology_ (London, 1986) [Royal Historical Society], 51. _Medieval Anglesey_ (Llangefni, 1982), A. D. Carr, 44-7. _The Itinerary of Archbishop Baldwin through Wales, A.D. MCLXXXVIII [Spring, 1188], by Giraldus de Barri [Geraldus Cambrensis]..._, Sir Richard Colt Hoare (London, 1806), v. 2. Sir John Wynn, _History of the Gwydir Family_,e d. J. Ballinger (1927), 7. DNB; and Dictionary of Welsh Biography [under Rhodri ab Owain]. Chronology: 1170: Owain Gwynedd dies. His sons dispute his lands. His son Hywel is defeated and killed at the battle of Pentraeth by his brothers Dafydd and Rhodri. Gwynedd [North Wales] was divided and the share of Anglesey fell to their brother Maelgwn. 1172: Owain Gwynedd's brother Cadwaladr dies on 29 February, increasing the lands claimed by Owain's sons. 1173: Dafydd drives his brother Maelgwn from Anglesey and forces him to flee to Ireland. 1174: Dafydd expands his ambitions and attempts the conquest of all of Gwynedd. The death of his brother Cynan helps remove one opponent. Iorwerth may also have been dead by this time. Maelgwn returns from Ireland, but is imprisoned. This left only his brother Rhodri and his nephews to oppose him. Dafydd conquers the whole region, displacing the others. Having not been necessarily unloyal to Henry, King of England, in the upheaval of 1173-4, Dafydd sends a special envoy to ask the king for the hand of his half-sister, Emma, illegitimate daughter of Geoffrey of Anjou, "famed for her beauty, and now, it would seem, a widow." The marriage took place in the summer of 1174. 1175: Rhodri, as his most important rival, is imprisoned by Dafydd, but escapes from captivity and drives Dafydd out of Gwynedd west of the Conwy [before the end of the year], establishing a balance of power. The sons of Cynan also recover their father's lands. Dafydd, unable to overcome this defeat, agrees to the partition. Rhodri was to hold these lands peacefully through the next decade. Rhodri enters into an alliance with Rhys ap Gruffydd, Prince of South Wales, and marries one of his daughters [Gwenllian]. 1177: Rhodri and the sons of Cynan are absent from the Council of Oxford, before the King of England. Dafydd was in attendance, as were the rulers of South Wales. 1188: Baldwin, Archbishop of Canterbury, tours Wales [accompanied by Giraldus] recruiting for the crusade [Jerusalem had fallen to enemies the previous year]. He preached at a place in Anglesey, possibly Porthwaethwy. Rhodri and his men, in the audience, declined to take the cross. Rhodri is chastised for his marriage to his cousin [the daughter of Rhys ap Gruffydd] which fell within the prohibited degrees (this would indicate his first wife was still very much alive). Gerald relates: "From Bangor, we crossed over a small arm of the sea to the island of Mona, distant from thence about two miles, where Roderic [Rhodri], the younger son of Owen, attended by nearly all the inhabitants of the island ... came in a devout manner to meet us. Confession havingbeen made in a place near the shore, ... many persons were induced to take the cross, by the persuasuve discourses of the Archbishop, and Alexander, our interpreter .... Many chosen youths of the family of Roderic were seated on an opposite rock, and not one of them could be prevailed upon to take th ecross, although the Archbishop and others most earnestly exhorted them, but in vain, by an address particularly addressed to them. It came to pass within three days,as if by divine vengeance, that these young men, with many others, pursued some robbers of that country; being discomfited and put to flight, some were slain, others mortally wounded, and the survivors voluntarily assumed that cross they had before despised. Roderic ... who a short time before had incestuously married the daughter of Rhys, related to himby blood in the third degree; in order, by the assistance of that prince, to be better able to defend himself against the sons of his brothers, whom he disinherited, not paying attention to the wholesome admonistions of the Archbishop on this subject [was eventually dispossessed of his lands]. [Itinerary, 101-2] Lloyd says that Llywelyn ap Iorwerth attained his majority in 1188 [at age 14] and began to make trouble for his uncles [2:565]. Lloyd specifically states that he was born in the early part of 1173 [2:587]. It appears that Llywelyn's father, Iorwerth, died while Llywelyn was an infant, and that Llywelyn was raised in his mother's land of Powys. 1190/1: Rhodri is driven out of Anglesey by his nephews, the sons of Cynan ap Owain. He seeks the aid of Reginald, King of Man, and pledges to marry his daughter. Lloyd says "about 1190," some accounts say 1190, and another 1191. Godred, king of Man, had died in 1187, and his minor son Olaf was displaced by Godred's natural son "Reginald." 1193: Rhodri ap Owain "subjugated the isle of Mona [Anglesey], through the aid of the sons of Godrich, king of Man; but before the end of the year he was expelled by the sons of Cynan, son of Owain Gwynedd, his nephews." [Brut, 238-9.] The victory by Rhodri was known as 'Haf y Gwyddyl.' It was apparently called 'the Gaelic summer' because of the influx of Gaelic-speaking men from the Isle of Man that had accompanied Rhodri into Gwynedd. 1194: "And king Richard returned from Jerusalem. And then Llywelyn, son of Iorwerth, and Rhodri, son of Owain, and the two sons of Cynan, son of Owain, combined against David, son of Owain Gwynedd, and oppugned all the territory of David, except three castles." [Brut, 240-1.] But conflicting accounts indicate that Rhodri sided with David and was defeated by Llywelyn at Coed Aneu in Anglesey, and that Rhodri's defeat left him with almost nothing. DWB says it is unknown if Rhodri "returned from exile and shared in his brother Dafydd's humiliation in 1194". Lloyd makes reference to the various conflicting sources [2:588-8]. 1195: Rhodri dies, and is buried at Holyhead/Caergybi. DNB states there are several poems to Rhodri: The 'Myvyrian Archaiology' contains one by Gwalchmai (2nd ed., p. 146 [in which Rhodri is called the "great rampart of his people"]), one by Elidyr Sais (p. 241), and four by Llywarch ap Llywelyn (pp. 201-3). This appears to agree with the information in the second and third letters from Innocent III. It would seem Rhodri properly married the daughter of the King of Man in 1193, sleeping with her from 1 May to 15 June [the feast of St. Vitus]. It would make sense that having fulfilled and consumated his marriage pledge, the King of Man sent forces with Rhodri to reconquer his lands in Anglesey in the summer of 1193. If the testimony in the third letter is correct, it would help us narrow down the date of Rhodri's death. If he married her shortly before 1 May 1193, and was bound to him for another 2 years, 2 months, 15 days, he would have died sometime about 16 July 1195. Of course, this is speculation based on the accuracy of the testimony of the information sent from Innocent III, but it helps narrow things down a little. [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108] [From Migne's Latin Patrologiae 214, 791-2. (24 November 1199)] CCXXXIII MANNENSI EPISCOPO, ARCHIDIACONO BANGORENSI ET PRIORI DE INSULA GLANNAVO. Ne ante septennium sponsalia contrahantur. (Laterani, viii Kal. Decembris.) Postulavit a nobis dilectus filius vir nobilis R. princeps Norwali, ut de concessione nostra sibi liceret filiam dilecti filii principis Insularum subharrhatam ab ipso accipere in uxorem, non obstante quod patruo ejus eadem infra nubiles annos exstitit desponsata cum tamen a neutro traducta fuisset. Verum quoniam nobis constare non potuit cujus tatis puella tempore subarrhationis vel desponsationis exstiterit et cui antea fuerit, puta nepoti vel patruo, desponsata, cum secundum diversitates factorum jura etiam sint diversa, in hujusmodi certum non potuimus dare responsum, quoniam juxta canonicas sanctiones in rebus ambiguis non est absolutum judicium proferendum. Volentes autem, quantum cum Deo possumus, justas postulationes prfati principis sine difficultate qualibet exaudire, inquisitionem eorum qu prmismus sub certa forma examini vestro duximus committendam, quid juris sit in singulis articulis supponentes. Quocirca discretioni vestr per apostolica scripta mandamus quatenus vocatis ad prsentiam vestram quos videritis evocandos, sollicite inquiratis utrum puella septennium non attigerit quando subarrhata exstitit a nepote, vel patruo desponsata. In utroque namque istorum casuum, quia tam subarrhatio quam desponsatio de jure non tenuit, qu non potest septennium prvenire, quod factum est a patruo primo vel postea non obstante, nisi aliud quid impediat, puella eadem legitime contrahere poterit cum nepote. Si vero tam subarrhationis quam desponsationis tempore septennis exstitit vel majoris tatis, cum ex tunc incipiant placere sponsalia, si prcessit desponsatio patrui, non potuit contrahere cum nepote; quoniam secundum traditiones et observantias regulares nullus potest sponsam consanguinei sui accipere in uxorem, et hi duo casus non ad imparia judicantur. Si autem subarrhatio facta cum nepote prcessit, quod secutum fuit postea non tenente, cum per secundum factum non potuerit primum dissolvi, quod quantum ad sponsalia sortitum fuerit firmitatem, volentibus personis principalibus, matrimonium inter eas poterit consummari. Si vero nepos eam ante septennium subarrhavit et patruus in septennio vel post septennium desponsavit eamdem, nepos eam propter rationem prmissam ducere non poterit in uxorem, sin, vice versa, eam sibi legitime poterit copulare. Pro iis qu prmismus memori commendatis, cum de facto vobis constiterit, de jure non poteritis dubitare. Vos ergo, appelatione remota, secundum prmissas distinctiones injunctum vobis curetis negotium diffinire. Quod si omnes, etc., tu, frater episcope, cum eorum altero. Dat. Lat. viii Kal. Decembris. [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 7/2/1999-232948] Translation: To the bishop of [Mannensus - Menevia, St Davids?] Archdeacon of Bangor and Prior of the Island of [Glannavus] Betrothals may not be contracted before the age of seven From the Lateran, 24 November Our beloved son R the noble prince of North Wales has applied for from us, as he {?may have been - subjunctive mood} allowed by our concession to him to take as wife the pledged daughter of our beloved son the Prince of the Isles, that he was not obstructed because it emerged that his paternal uncle had also betrothed her below the marriageable age when however it may not have been made public by either party. Yet, since it was not able to be agreed by us whose pledge or betrothal may have existed when the girl was {?became} of age, and whose may have been prior to that, [puta - ??] nephew or uncle was betrothed, when after differences of fact the {jura - judge? jury? judgment? evidence?} on this may also be contradictory, because of this we were not able to give a definitive response, seeing that the canon law does not give {?allow} absolute judgment on ambiguous things. We are willing, however, {?as much as we can with God}, to listen to just claims of the prefatory principles without difficulty, (the inquisition of which we sent ahead which we sent to you under a certain form for your examination), which may be presented in a single clause of oaths. Therefore we submit this to your discretion {?by means of the apostolic writings}, as far as who you call summoning to your presence, you should take evidence to solicit whether the girl had not attained the seventh year when the pledge with the nephew arose, or the engagement with the uncle. In both cases for example in that event, because the law did not admit the pledge or that betrothal, which is not able to come before the seventh year, notwithstanding because it was done by the uncle first or later, unless there may be other hindrances, the same girl would be able to contract with the nephew. If in fact so much as a pledge of betrothal existed at the time of the seventh year or if you like the {age of majority - majoris}, from which time they may begin to satisfy the engagement, if it preceded the betrothal with the uncle, she was not able to contract with the nephew, seeing that according to tradition and regular observances no-one is able to take the fiancee/bride [sponsa] of a relative as his wife, {and these two events are not judged unequal}. If however the pledge made with the nephew went before, {because [? - secutum] was later not holding, when by the second event it would not be possible to dissolve the first, because as much as the decided arrangement would be steadfastly held to by the principal parties, it would be possible for the marriage between them to be consummated [is there a 'not' missing from this sentence?]. If in fact the nephew was pledged to her before the seventh year and the uncle betrothed her in or after the seventh year, the nephew would not be able to take her as wife on account of the foregoing reasoning, but if it were vice versa, he would legitimately be able to consummate [copulare]. You recommend according to those memorials which we have sent ahead, when the events may be agreed {?determined} by you, you will not be able to doubt the law. You therefore, by means of remote appeal, you may attend to the business in accordance with the attached differentiation sent to you. But if all, etc., you, brother bishop, with others of these, Given at the Lateran on the 24th November [Ref: Suzanne Doig SGM 7/27/1999-220745] [From Migne's Latin Patrologiae 215, 49-50. (19 April 1203)] XLVII ABBATI DE ABENTON (99), PRIORI DE HENLI, ET MAGISTRO M CANONICO DE BERLINTON, BANGORENSIS DICESEOS. Confirmat sententiam de sponsalibus inter filiam princeps Insularum et principem Norwalli. (Laterani, xiii Kal. Maii.) Olim dilectus filius, nobilis vir, N. (100), princeps Norwalli, a nobis humiliter postulavit, ut de concessione nostra liceret eidem filiam nobilis viri ....... principis Insularum, quam se subarrhasse scribebat, ducere in uxorem, etc. In eumdem fere modum, sicut in Regesto secundi anni (101), mense Decembri usque poterit copulare. Partibus itaque in prdictorum judicum prsentia constitutis, sicut ipsi per suas nobis litteras intimarunt, eis per testes constitit evidenter, quod puella, completis octo annis, a L. principe Norwalli, tam suo quam suorum consensu parentum, subarrhata fuerat, sed, eo ex necessitate traducere differente, a patruo sine suo consensu postmodum desponsata, qui, ea nequaquam carnaliter cognita, viam fuerat univers carnis ingressus. Unde, ipsi judices, communicato prudentum virorum consilio, puellam eamdem a L. prdicto, Norwalli principe, sententialiter concesserunt auctoritate apostolica desponsari, ne discordia inter illos olim exorta, nunc autem sopita, iterum oriatur, sicut nobis per suas litteras intimarunt. Nos igitur eorumdem sententiam, nisi aliud rationabile quid obsistat, ratam et firmam habentes, prsentium vobis auctoritate mandamus, quatenus ipsam faciatis, appellatione remota, per censuram ecclesiasticam inviolabiliter observari. Nullis litteris veritati, etc. Quod si non omnes ... duo, etc. Notes from Migne's Latin Patrologiae: (99) De abbatibus hujus monasterii, circa hc in quibus versamur tempora, nihil apud auctores "Monastic. Angl." (100) Qui hic initiali N. alibi (vid. not. seq.) R. littera designatur; sed forsan utrobique male. Rectius, ut infra, in hac ipsa epistola, L. Lewellinum enim, Norwalli principem, circa hc tempora diserte nominat auctor cotaneus, et ipse patria Wallensis, Giraldus, "De jure et statu Menevensis eccles." part. ii, pag. 554. Lewellinus, item, fundator abbati Aberconweyensis in agro Carmarthensi, prodit in charta data anno 1198, principatus sui decimo, vii Id. Januarii. "Monastic. Anglic.", tom. 1, pag. 918. An idem ac Lewellinus, princeps Wenedoci, cui Joannes, Anglorum rex, Annam filiam suam in uxorem dederat, et munitiones ac oppida sua abstulisse dicitur anno 1211, cum Norwalliam magno exercitu stipatus adiisset? "Annal. eccles. Menens." ad ann. 1211 (Vide etiam "Annal. eccles. Wigorn., Angl. sacr." part. i, pag. 481 et 482.) (101) Epistola 233, ad Mannensum (legendum, forsan Menevensem) episcopum, archidiaconum Bangorensem, et priorem de insula Glannavo, directa. [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 7/2/1999-232948] [From Migne's Latin Patrologiae 215, 534-7] CCXX. ..... ELIENSI ..... NORVICENSI, ET ..... DE SANCTO ASAPH, EPISOPIS. Ut causam matrimonii, inter filiam principis Insularum, et principem Norwalli, vertentem terminent. (Apud S. Petrum, XIII Kal. Martii.) Cum olim dilectus filius, nobilis vir ... princeps Norwalli, a nobis humiliter postulasset, ut de nostra sibi permissione liceret filiam nobilis viri ... principis Insularum, quam se asseruit subarrasse, ducere in uxorem, non obstante, quod ... patruo ejus eadem mulier infra nubiles annos fuerat desponsata, cum neuter eorum transduxisset eamdem, hon memori ... Mannen. episcopo, et dilectis filiis ... archidiacono, et ... priori de Insula Glannav. sub certa forma causam ipsam commisimus terminandam. Partibus itaque in prdictorum judicum prsentia constitutis, sicut ipsi per suas nobis litteras intimarunt, per testes ejus constitut evidenter, quod prdicta puella, octo annis expletis, ab L. principe Norwalli, tam suo quam suorum assensu parentum, fuerat subarrhata, sed, eo ex necessitate ipsam transducere differente, ejusdem L. patruus ipsam sine consensu ejus postmodum desponsavit, qui, ea nequaquam carnaliter cognita, viam fuerat univers carnis ingressus. Judices ergo prdicti, communicato prudentium virorum consilio, prdicto Norwalli principi auctoritate apostolica concesserunt, ut puellam desponsaret eamdem, ne discordia inter ipsum et parentes puell olim exorta, et tunc sopita, iterum oriretur. Nos igitur, eorumdem sententiam, nisi aliud rationabile quidem obstaret, volentes firmitatem debitam obtinere, dilectis filiis ... abbati de Abenton ... priori de Henli, et magistro M. canonico de Berlinton. Bangorensis diceseos, dedimus in mandatis, ut ipsam facerent, appellatione remota, per censuram ecclesiasticam firmiter observari. Abbas vero prdictus, et conjudices sui, propter conditionem in litteris nostris expressam, super matrimonio illo, sicut in eorum litteris perspeximus contineri, studiose ac sollicite, receptis testibus, veritatem inquirere curaverunt. Habitis ergo quatuor productionibus testium, et redactis in scriptis despositionibus eorumdem, ea, qu ad decisionem caus credebant sufficere, de utriusque partis assensu, nobis transmittere curaverunt, ut nobis rei veritas eluceret, consuleretur conscienti principis supradicti, qui priores judices, et prsertim archidiaconum et priorem dicebat juris ignaros, et litteras nostras per falsam suggestionem obtentas, nec se credebat cum eadem puella posse salvari, qu patruo ejus tradita in uxorem in uno lecto spius fuerat cum eodem. Nos igitur, depositionibus testium diligenter inspectis, probatum invenimus per easdem, quod idem L. puellam ipsam ducturum se juraverat in uxorem, sed nec ipsam transduxerat, nec probabatur per testes, quod benedictus fuerit, aut in una terra fuerit cum eadem, utpote quorum terras mare medium dividebat. In actis quoque judicum perspeximus contineri, quod suffucientibus testimoniis probatum fuerat coram ipsis, octo annorum fuisse puellam, quando idem L. eam juraverat se ducturum. Cumque pater puell filiam suam in Norwalliam ad statutum terminum ducere distulis set, idem L. sororem nobilis viri ... comitis Castri, sine contradictione qualibet, circa fluem illius anni duxerat in uxorem, et R. patruus ejus puellam desponsaverat memoratum, et post annum in facie Ecclesi, cum illa contraxerat, et a principio Maii usque ad festum beati Viti martyris, quoties ei placuit, in eodem lecto jacuerat cum eadem, et in Walliam fuerat elapso tempore aliquanto reversus. Cterum, transacto secundo anno a tempore desponsationis, primo vero a tempore nuptiarum, in Manniam rediens, pacifice cohabitavit uxori, et eam secum per terram et mare deduxit, sed, ea tandem sub parentum cura relicta, in Walliam rediit, ibique fuit viam univers carnis ingressus. Ex dictis igitur testium collegerunt judices supradicti, quod prdictus R. puellam eamdem a tempore desponsationis habuerat per triennium, et tres menses, sed per biennium, duos menses, et dies quindecim a tempore nuptiarum; fuit autem diversitas inter testes, cum quidam, ex eo quod puella erat tunc temporis macilenta, quod non fuisset carnaliter cognita existamarent, licet esset tate nubilis, et toro matura; quidam autem nescire se dicerent, si carnaliter cognita exstitisset, quidam vero crederent, quod cognita non fuisset, quidam vero ab ipso R. assererent se audisse, quod eam carnaliter non cognovit; licet adjicerent se nescire, utrum postmodum fuerit cum eadem. Verum, prdictus episcopus Manni, sicut in scriptis ejus, et suorum conjudicum secundo delegati perspexerant contineri, conjudicibus ejus absentibus, tam ex ipsius puell quam parentum, nutricis et famularum ejus didicit juramentis, quod prdictus R. puellam ipsam carnaliter non cognovit. Patruo ergo viam univers carnis ingresso, cum prdictus L. a rege Manni juniorem filiam in conjugum postulasset, nec id obtinere potuisset ab eo, utpote cum ipsa fuisset alii copulata, spedictam puellam de assensu priorum judicum sibi postmodum copulavit. Constitit igitur ex prdictis quod inter spedictum L. et prdictam puellam, cum octo esset annorum cujus tamen consensus non invenitur expressus, antequam cum ipsa ejusdem L. patruus contraxisset, tantummodo per verba de futuro fuerunt sponsalia celebrata, ita quod nec idem L. transduxerat aut subarrharat eamdem, nec cum ipsa fuerat benedictus, quin imo nec in eadem fuerant terra simul, utpote quorum terras, sicut superius est expressum, mare medium dividebat: unde prsumi non potest quod aliquid attentarint, quod non potuerint consummare. Constitut etiam per prdicta quod puella ipsa in nono anno spedicto R. desponsata fuerat, et in decimo ab ipso transducta, et ultra biennium in uno lecto frequenter fuerat cum eodem. Unde colligitur manifeste quod prim litter per falsam fuerunt suggestionem obtent, cum contineatur in illis quod neuter eorum transduxit eamdem. Cumque tandin simul in uno lecto fuissent, de jure prsumitur quod facti fuerint una caro, cum etiam in duodecimo anno, in quo liberum et legitimum habet in hujusmodi puella consensum, voluntarie fuerit cum eodem, patet eam in ejus matrimonium legitime consensisse, nec potuisse contrahere postmodum cum nepote. Unde idem L. ducere ipsam de jure non potuit, et, si de facto ipsam sibi post mortem patrui copulavit, ab ea est merito separandus. Ideoque fraternitati vestr per apostolica scripta mandamus, quatenus, vocatis qui propter hoc fuerint evocandi, causam ipsam secundum prcriptam formam, appellatione postposita, terminetis, facientes, etc. Datum Rom, apud Sanctum Petrum, XIII Kal. Martii. [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 7/31/1999-052435]
b. Note:   BI54766
Note:   Sources for this Information: date: [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108, Weis AR7 #27, Weis AR7 #29A] abt 1173 [Ref: Reitwiesner Joan p80], parents: [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 7/27/1997-062054, Weis AR7 #176] Iorwerth & dau Madog ap Meredydd [Ref: Paul Reed SGM 10/20/1999-234108], father: [Ref: Moncreiffe RoyalAnc p11, Tapsell Dynasties p178]
c. Note:   DI54766
Note:   Sources for this Information: date: [Ref: ES III.2 #356, Paget HRHCharles p16, Reitwiesner Joan p8, Watney WALLOP #613, Weis AR7 #176, Weis AR7 #29A] 1240 [Ref: Moncreiffe RoyalAnc p11, Tapsell Dynasties p178, Weis AR7 #27], place: [Ref: Paget HRHCharles p16, Reitwiesner Joan p80, Weis AR7 #29A]


RootsWeb.com is NOT responsible for the content of the GEDCOMs uploaded through the WorldConnect Program. The creator of each GEDCOM is solely responsible for its content.