The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest

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  • ID: I32205
  • Name: Muriel de DINHAM 1 2 3
  • Sex: F
  • Birth: ABT 1385 in Hartland Quay, Bideford, Devon, England
  • Death: AFT 1412 4
  • Note:
    He [Edward Hastinges] married, 1stly, Muriel, daughter of Sir John DE DINHAM, of Hartland, Devon. [Complete Peerage VI:358-60, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]

    --------------------------

    Note: PA2, p. 130, states that Muriel is a daughter of John de Dinham by Muriel de Courtenay, but this is shown to be in error by John Ravilious in a post to SGM, 1 Jun 2001:

    From: Therav3 AT aol.com (Therav3 AT aol.com)
    Subject: Dinham/Courtenay Correction (was: Grenvilles of Devon Pt. 2)
    Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
    Date: 2001-06-01 22:29:26 PST

    Friday, 1 June, 2001

    Hello Brad, Louise, Doug et al.,

    The prior discussion of the documentation re: the Dinham relationship and inheritance from Hugh de Courtenay of Woodhuish and Dunterton, Devon & c. caused me to review the relationship between these generations of the Dinham and Courtenay families and the marriage of Muriel de Dinham to Sir Edward Hastings, de jure 8th Lord Hastings (d. 6 Jan 1437/38).

    The relationship as set forth in Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd ed. (pp. 130-131) is as follows:

    ..1. Sir John de Dinham, 4th Lord Dinham (murdered 7 Jan 1382/83), m. Muriel de Courtenay, sister and coheiress (in her issue) of Hugh de Courtenay, above.

    ..2. Muriel de Dinham, d. after 1412, m. Sir Edward Hastings, as above.

    ..3. John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings, d. 9 Apr 1477, m. Anne Morley

    In reviewing this line, the following conflicting issues were noted:

    A. Sir John de Dinham (#1 above) was born ca. 1317/18 [CP Vol. IV, p. 373], and was married to Muriel de Courtenay sometime before 1360: as indicated in the latest 'Grenvilles of Devon' post, the Inquisition p.m. for Hugh de Courtenay (1369) clearly shows the son of Sir John de Dinham and Muriel de Courtenay was then approx. 10 years of age.

    B. It would be logical to assume that most siblings of the younger John de Dinham (b. ca. 1359/60) would be born fairly soon before or after his birthdate. At any rate, no sibling would have been born any later than 12 Aug 1369: on that date the Inq.p.m. for Hugh de Courtenay makes it clear that the younger John de Dinham was his heir (coheir actually), making it clear that his mother Muriel de Courtenay was already deceased.

    C. Sir Edward de Hastings (#2 above) was born in 1382, and baptised on 21 May 1382 [CP Vol VI, p. 358]. His son and heir, John Hastings, was born sometime before 1412, as he was aged '26 and more' at his father's death on 6 Jan 1437/38 [CP Vol VI, pp. 359-360]. Given the marital customs and infant mortality of the age, it is safe to assume a marriage being transacted and consummated sometime in 1397 or later, with a 'safe' approximate date of ca. 1402, and also safe to assume that the bride would be the same age as, or more likely slightly younger than, the groom. This would indicate a birth date for Muriel de Dinham, wife of Sir Edward de Hastings, sometime between 1381 and 1391, and certainly no later than 1399 given the birth date of her son (before 1412, as above).

    It is clear from the above that there is a chronological problem for the same Muriel de Dinham to be both the daughter of Sir John de Dinham (#1 above) and the wife of Sir Edward de Hastings (#2 above). The dates in question either would require that Sir Edward de Hastings married a woman some 13 years or more his senior, or that she was in fact not the daughter of Sir John de Dinham who died in 1382/83.

    Given the naming patterns of the period, with an older child frequently being named for a grandparent before the name of a parent would be used, and the chronological issues indicated above, I find the one answer to be that Muriel de Dinham, wife of Sir Edward de Hastings must be the daughter of John de Dinham (b. 1359/60) and not his sister as indicated in PA above. The relevant chronology of the life of this John de Dinham is as follows (from CP Vol IV, pp. 374-377):

    A. Born 1359/60, as noted above.
    B. Married firstly, before 3 Feb 1379/80, Ellen [surname unknown].
    C. Married secondly, before 26 Nov 1396, Maud Mautravers, daughter of Sir John Mautravers of Hook, Dorset & c.
    D. Married thirdly, after 1 Nov 1402, Philippe Lovel, daughter of Sir John Lovel, Lord Lovel

    The text of the inquisition p.m. for Maud Mautravers cited by CP (Vol IV, p. 376n) make is clear that she d.s.p., with her sister Elizabeth found to be her heir. This makes it evident that the one possible solution would be that Sir John de Dinham's first wife, Ellen, must be the mother of Muriel de Dinham [his heir, Sir John de Dinham, was born before 1407, the son of the third wife - see CP Vol IV, p. 377].

    The modified line for this descent would then appear as follows:

    ..1. Sir John de Dinham, 4th Lord Dinham, m. Muriel de Courtenay [#1 above]

    ..2. Sir John de Dinham, 5th Lord Dinham, d. 25 Dec 1428, m. 1stly Ellen
    ________

    ..3. Muriel de Dinham, d. after 1412, m. Sir Edward Hastings [#2 above]

    ..4. John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings, d. 1477, m. Anne Morley [#3 above]


    This impacts the MC and PA lines of several known GARDs, noted by PA as including William Farrar, William Asfordby, William Bladen, William Skepper and George and Nehemiah Blakiston. I am therefore sending this information also to Douglas Richardson for his information and consideration as to its impact on the forthcoming MC and PA publications.

    Any and all comments and criticisms welcome.

    Good luck, and good hunting.

    John

    - - - - - - - - - -

    This follow up pose to SGM, 20 Feb 2004, gives proof of who Muriel's father is:

    From: John Ravilious (therav3 AT aol.com)
    Subject: CP Addition: Muriel Dinham, daughter of John, Lord Dinham (d. 1428)
    Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
    Date: 2004-02-20 11:07:00 PST

    Friday, 20 February, 2004

    Hello All,

    Previous posts to SGM have discussed the problem and apparent resolution concerning the parentage of Muriel Dinham, wife of Edward Hastings of Elsing and Gressenhall (d. 1437) [1].

    Evidence has now been found on the PRO site identifying John Dinham, Lord Dinham (d. 25 Dec 1428) as the father of Muriel. This is the text of the prenuptial agreement/marriage contract between Edward Hastings (d. 1437) and John Dinham dated 20 February 1406. This agreement provides that "Edward, Lord of Hastyngges shall marry Muriel, John [de Dynham, knight]'s daughter". The text from the PRO site is provided in full below.

    Reference: AR/37/24
    Creation dates: 1406, 20th Feb
    Language: French

    Scope and Content (7 Hen IV); at Notewill (Devon)

    Pre-nuptial settlement

    Edward Lord of Hastyngges = (1) John de Dynham, knight = (2)

    Agreement between (1) and (2), that (1) shall marry Muriel (2)'s daughter, and shall enfeoff certain persons at their choice (a lour dieux ellection) with certain lands and tenements, to the value of 100 marks yearly, in 'which Muriel shall be jointured (iungne) during her life, and that she shall be dowered in lands and tenements to the yearly value of 300 marks along with that jointure. For the marriage and jointure, (2) shall pay to (1) 400 marks (100 marks on the day of the marriage, 100 marks the following Michaelmas, and 100 marks yearly at Michaelmas until fully paid), provided that she is so jointured; if not, the payments shall not be made.

    Seal [fine; of (1) presumably]. [18th century?] "This indenture is in French and contains articles of mariage between Sr Edward Hastings and the Lady Muriell daughter to Sr Johne Dynham."


    As John de Dinham, husband of Muriel de Courtenay, was murdered 7 Jan 1382/3, it is quite certain that the John de Dinham identified in this agreement of 1406 was the son of John and Muriel. He married (1st) Ellen ______, and has been identified as indicated before as the father of Muriel. This identification can now be made with certainty.

    Cheers,

    John




    Father: John de DINHAM , of Hartland, Sir b: 1359 in Hartland, Bideford, Devon, England
    Mother: Ellen (Eleanor) MONTAGU , Heiress of Warblington b: ABT 1360 in Warblington, Havant, Hampshire, England

    Marriage 1 Edward 8th Baron HASTINGS , of Elsing, Sir b: 21 MAY 1382 in Fenwick, Doncaster, Yorkshire West Riding, England
    • Married: 20 FEB 1405/06 in 1st wife 5 6 7
    Children
    1. Has Children John 9th Baron HASTINGS , of Elsing, Esq b: ABT 1412 in Gressenhall, Mitford, Norfolk, England

    Sources:
    1. Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
      Page: VI:358-60
    2. Title: Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, by David Faris, 2nd Edition 1999, NEHGS
      Page: 130
      Text: Muriel, daughter of John de Dinham by Muriel, daughter of Thomas de Courtenay
    3. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: John Ravilious, 1 Jun 2001
    4. Title: Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, by David Faris, 2nd Edition 1999, NEHGS
      Page: 130
      Text: Edward & Muriel's son John was b. c1412
    5. Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
      Page: VI:358-60
      Text: no date
    6. Title: Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, by David Faris, 2nd Edition 1999, NEHGS
      Page: 130
      Text: no date
    7. Title: Magna Carta Ancestry, by Douglas Richardson, 2005, Genealogical Publishing Co.
      Page: 302
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