The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest

Entries: 46457    Updated: 2015-06-11 05:23:07 UTC (Thu)    Owner: Jim Weber

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  • ID: I27702
  • Name: Margaret granddaughter of Ralph BELET 1 2 3
  • Sex: F
  • Birth: ABT 1253
  • Death: BEF 13 DEC 1338 in Stonehouse, Stroud, Gloucestershire, England 1
  • Note:
    He [John Giffard] married, 2ndly, in 1286, Margaret, widow of Sir John DE NEVILLE, of Hallingbury, Wethersfield, Great Totham, Great Wakering and Langharn, Essex, Alphington, Devon, &c. who died shortly before 20 May 1282. He died at Boyton, Wilts, 29 May, and was buried 11 June 1299 in Malmesbury Abbey. His widow's dower was ordered to be assigned, 1 August 1299, and on 5 August she was assigned the manors of Stonehouse, Stoke Gifford, Elston, and Broughton Gifford. She died shortly before 13 December 1338. [Complete Peerage V:639-44, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]

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    He [John de Neville] married, probably as 2nd wife, Margaret, whose parentage has not been exactly ascertained. He died before 20 May 1282. Dower was assigned to his widow 1 July 1282. She married, 2ndly, as his 2nd wife, Sir John GIFFARD of Brimpsfield, afterwards LORD GIFFARD. She was living in February, but died in or before December 1338. [Complete Peerage IX:483-4, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]

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    The following is copied from the website, "Somer Corrections & Additions to CP":

    NEVILLE or NEVILL OF ESSEX
    Volume 9, page 483

    He [John de Neville (d. by 1282)] m., probably as 2nd wife, Margaret, whose parentage has not been exactly ascertained.(j)

    Note j (and continuation on page 484):

    At first sight it would appear that one of her parents was probably a son or a daughter of Hugh Giffard of Boyton, Wilts (yr. s. of Elis Giffard III - see vol. v, p. 639, note "c"), by his wife Sibyl, da. and coh. of Walter de Cormeilles. Walter Giffard (1st s. of the said Hugh and Sibyl), Archbishop of York, Keeper of the Tower of London (Liberate Roll, 1 Edw. I, m. 4), gave order, 10 Mar. 1271/2 (Letters from the N. Registers, Rolls Ser., p. 43), that the Tower should be delivered to his nephew (by marriage) John de Neville. Godfrey Giffard, Bishop of Worcester, the Archbishop's brother, and one of the executors of John de Neville of Essex (Cal. Close Rolls, 1279-88 p. 187), in his will (Thomas, Survey of the Cathedral Church of Worcester, App., pp. 77-81), mentions his niece Lady Margaret de Neuville, widow of the late John Giffard (of Brimpsfield, the testator's 1st cousin). This relationship of John de Neville's widow to the Archbishop and Bishop of Worcester would produce the consanguinity in the 3rd and 4th degrees between herself and her 2nd husband referred to in their application for a dispensation ..., but since the Bishop on inquiry found judicially that they were each related in the 6th degree, the terms nephew and niece must apparently be used to denote a more distant relationship.

    . . . . .

    The discussion of the Giffards above is confused. Ivor West, in June 2002, stated that Hugh Giffard of Boyton was not a younger son of Elis III, but the son of Walter, a younger son of Elis II. This would be consistent with the alleged 3rd and 4th degree relationship, if Margaret had been a granddaughter of Hugh Giffard of Boyton. But as stated above, since the relationship was found instead to be one of the 6th degree, obviously Margaret was not a granddaughter of Hugh.

    But the evidence remains that, as stated above, Margaret's first husband John Neville is referred to as archbishop Walter Giffard's nepos in 1271/2, and that Margaret appears in bishop Godfrey Giffard's will as his neptis. In addition, in the bishop of Hereford's register, immediately before the record of the enquiry into the consanguinity of John Giffard and Margaret, is a letter from bishop Giffard requesting that the enquiry into the marriage of his (unnamed) neptis be carried out as soon as possible [Canterbury and York Society, vol. 6, p. 113 (1909)]. It seems clear that John Neville was not a nephew of Walter and Godfrey Giffard, so the natural interpretation is that - as suggested above - John was Walter's nephew by marriage, and Margaret was their niece.

    The obvious solution is that Margaret was the daughter of a half-sibling of Walter and Godfrey Giffard on their mother's side. It appears that their mother Sibyl de Cormeilles had previously been married to Ralph Belet, but that her heir was a son of her marriage to Hugh Giffard (whom she survived). Therefore it seems likely that Margaret's mother was a daughter of Ralph Belet and Sibyl de Cormeilles. If this solution is correct, the allegation that John Giffard and Margaret were close cousins was perhaps the result of the mistaken belief in some quarters that Margaret's mother was a daughter of Hugh Giffard, rather than his step daughter.

    [This problem was discussed by Douglas Richardson, Rosie Bevan and Ivor West.]




    Mother: Daughter of Ralph BELET b: ABT 1215

    Marriage 1 John de NEVILLE , of Hallingbury & Wakering b: ABT 1240 in Hallingbury, Bishop's Stortford, Essex, England
    • Married: in 1st husband 2nd wife 3
    Children
    1. Has Children Hugh 1st Baron NEVILLE , of Essex, Sir b: 23 AUG 1276 in Little Hallingbury, Bishop's Stortford, Essex, England

    Marriage 2 John 1st Baron GIFFARD , of Brimpsfield, Sir b: ABT 19 JAN 1231/32 in Brimpsfield, Cirencester, Gloucestershire, England
    • Married: 1286 in 2nd husband 2nd wife 1
    Children
    1. Has No Children John 2nd Baron GIFFARD , of Brimpsfield, Sir b: 24 JUN 1287 in Brimpsfield, Cirencester, Gloucestershire, England

    Sources:
    1. Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
      Page: V:639-44
    2. Title: Some Corrections and Additions to the Complete Peerage, www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/index.shtml
      Page: IX:483, Neville or Nevill of Essex
    3. Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
      Page: IX:483-4
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