The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest

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  • ID: I24787
  • Name: Joan (Joanna) verch RHYS , Heiress of Stackpole 1
  • Sex: F
  • ALIA: oan (Joanna) verch Rhys Heiress of /Stackpole/
  • Birth: 1370 in Stackpole Elidor, Pembrokeshire, Wales 2
  • Death: AFT 1412 2
  • Note:
    Joanna (or Joan), b. 1370, living 1412, daughter & heir of Richard Stackpole. [Ancestral Roots, 56a-35]

    Ancestral Roots has this note at the end of line 56a: In generation 35, proof that Joanna (Joan) was daughter of Rhys ap Griffith is given in Shaw's "Hist. & Antiquities of Staffordshire I" 122, 126, and app. p. 38, which quotes an indenture made by William Marshal & wife Margaret, widow of Sir Rhys ap Griffith, Knight, together with Margaret's son, Thomas, eldest son & heir of Sir Rhys, for properties of Sir Rhys, showing remainder for the estates, after Thomas, son of Rhys, to his sister Joan, widow of Sir Richard Vernon. Joan is also called "heir of Stackpole", in "Cartae et Alia Munimenta quaea ad Dominium de Glamorgancia pertnent, 4" (Cardiff, 1910), pp. 1466-69, calling her "daughter of Richard de Stackpole & heiress of Isabel, daughter of Richard de Stackpole & granddaughter of Margaret Turberville, sister of Richard Turberville, lord of Coity." From the dates known of these people and ages of death, it is evident that Joan had to be the granddaughter, not daughter, of Sir Richard de Stackpole.

    Note: I don't know why AR has her daughter of Richard in the main part, and then puts in a large note at the end that overrides her ancestry, making her granddaughter. It misled me for a long time, having missed the note at the end of the line. I don't read carefully to the end of many of their lines, because my ancestry usually differs someplace in the middle, making the remainder of the line not apply to me and mine.

    Note: There is still a lot unsaid in the confusing note above. I assume that Margaret Turberville is great grandmother of Joan, since AR seems to have dropped Joan one generation in the last sentence of the note from where she was in the 2nd to last as granddaughter of Margaret Turberville. Also I assume that Joan & Thomas, eldest son of Sir Rhys, are half-blood because Thomas is heir of Sir Rhys while Joan is heir of Stackpole (Isabel Stackpole must have been Rhys's 1st wife and mother of Joan, while Margaret is stated to be mother of Thomas).

    -----------------------------

    Joan was born about 1371 or before, as she was aged 40 or more in 1411. So Joan's mother died between about 1371 and 1376. Again, the Vernon arms indicate that Joan's mother was an heraldic heiress. Joan was not the heiress or the Griffith arms would have been quartered too. And the Griffiths were so prominent and had such large land holdings that if one were going to fake quartered arms it would have quartered the Griffith arms (wrongly) instead of the Stackpoles, who were relatively obscure. Chronology does not allow another generation between Joan's mother and Richard de Stackpole. Joan's mother must have either been Isabel/Elizabeth de Stackpole, or her sister. It could not have been a father's sister, or other arms would have been introduced into the quartering too from the sister's husband. Joan was called heir to Isabel de Stackpole in the inquisition of Laurence de Berkerolles, though it was in error in the latter part of the inquisition which stated Joan to be daughter of Richard de Stackpole. We have ample evidence to prove she was daughter of Rhys ap Gruffyd. So again, I am inclined to agree with the information in Llyfr Baglan, which states that Elizabeth [Isabel] de Stackpole, Richard's daughter, married Richard [Rhys] Gryffin [ap Gruffydd] and that they were parents of Joan, who married Sir Richerd Varnam [Vernon], knight. Llyfr Baglan got some of the pronunciation wrong, the connection being passed down verbally, but that almost adds to its credibility, i. e., that the author was not aware of the specific families, but gave the closest rendition that existed to his ear. If he were falsifying things one would have thought he'd get it right. So anyway, ...

    And Shaw states (p. 404) that Joanna, wife of Richard de Vernon, dead 1402-3, was "called (probably with truth) heir of Stackpole, living 1402-3" citing Deed of Bishop Edmund Stafford "cop. in Huntb. No. 2." I was not able to find such a deed among the series of Ancient Deeds, so it may recorded in that Bishop's register. I don't remember if the register of Edmund Stafford has been published yet. I have not checked for an inquisition of Sir Richard Vernon yet to see if he held Stackpole at his death in 1409.

    One LAST thing. I thought this interesting. CCR Henry IV 4:407 records, under the date 20 Oct. 1412, that the king gave order to the sheriff of Hereford (with provision to to take with him a posse with him if need be) to make proclamation in places near the castle of Coityf in places where William Gamage and Sir Gilbert Denys, knight, are to have "speediest" notice of it. They had assembled armed men and archers at the castle and besieged and held it "with armed power and the strong hand." In spite of this, "the said Gilbert and William with no small number of men armed and arrayed in manner of war did repair to the said castle, beseige it, and maintain the seige, purposing with the strong hand to thrust out Joan who was the wife of Richard Vernoun knight from possession thereof, in contempt of the king, contrary to diverse statutes, and to the disturbance of the king's true lieges there...." The king appointed a number of men to go and lift the seige, but "the king is informed" that in spite of being made aware of the king's orders, Gilbert and William Gamage "gathered together so great a multitude of armed men and archers there to hinder the execution of their commission, that the commissioners dared not for their lives repair thither." The king's will was "not to leave such contempt and mischief unpunished." Hmmmm. One wonders why Joan (Griffith) Vernon held the Castle of Coity instead of William Gamage. It was later determined by law that the castle should belong to William Gamage and his heirs, as male heir of Sir Payne de Turberville. Such was life.

    pcr [Paul Reed (Reedpcgen), soc.genealogy.medieval, newsgroup, 31 Jul 1998]




    Father: Rhys II "Jevan" ap GRIFFITH , of Abermarlais, Sir b: ABT 25 DEC 1325 in Abermarlais, Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, Wales
    Mother: Isabel Heiress of STACKPOLE b: ABT 1345 in Stackpole Elidor, Pembrokeshire, Wales

    Marriage 1 Richard VERNON , of Haddon & Harlaston, Sir b: 1370 in Haddon, Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
      Children
      1. Has Children Richard VERNON , of Haddon, Speaker of House, Sir b: ABT 1394 in Haddon, Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
      2. Has Children Miss VERNON b: ABT 1405 in Haddon, Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
      3. Has Children Joan (Joanna) VERNON b: BEF 1410 in Haddon, Bakewell, Derbyshire, England

      Sources:
      1. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
        Page: 56a-35, note at end of 56a
      2. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
        Page: 56a-35
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