The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest

Entries: 46457    Updated: 2015-06-11 05:23:07 UTC (Thu)    Owner: Jim Weber

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  • ID: I21381
  • Name: Maud de GREY 1 2 3 4
  • Sex: F
  • Birth: ABT 1346 in Rotherfield Greys Castle, Henley-on-Thames, Oxfordshire, England 5
  • Death: 30 JAN 1391/92 in Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, England 5
  • Note:
    Maud de Grey (by 2nd wife); m. (2) c 1374, Sir Thomas de Harcourt, Knight. [Magna Charta Sureties]

    ---------------

    Maud de Grey, daughter of 2nd Lord (Baron) Grey (of Rotherfield); m. (1) John de Botetourte, 2nd Lord (Baron) Botetourt, dvp & vm 21 Sep 1369. [Burke's Peerage]

    ----------------

    Alice/Eleanor/Maud, daughter of John, (probably 2nd) Lord (Baron) Grey (of Rotherfield), and widow of Sir John Botetourt. [Burke's Peerage] Note: CP II:235 also names Maud the daughter of the 2nd Lord, but SGM, AR & MCS name her daughter of the 1st Lord by his 2nd wife.

    ---------------

    In response to an e-mail by C.E. Wood, which questioned why I didn't follow the information from Burke's concerning Maud's marriages (see notes under Maud's father John), I replied as follows:

    What I neglected to say is that, despite putting many of the quotations from Burke's Dormant & Extinct Peerage in my notes, I don't use it very often as a source (ie. using the "source function" on my computer system (Family Tree Maker). Some of the quotations from Burke's on the life & times of the particular people are quite enjoyable and illuminating. However his genealogical relationships are dated (late 1800s) and often not accurate. I usually try to make a note of when I diverge from Burke's, but I missed this one because the note was under the father.

    Magna Charta Sureties (line 50-6) and Ancestral Roots (line 30-31) both have Maud as daughter of the 2nd wife (Avice Marmion). AR & MCS are higher on the pecking order of reliability than Burke's Dormant & Extinct Peerage. Note that I use the latest (106th edition) of Burke's Peerage and find it about as accurate as AR & MCS. CP & Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry, plus what I find on soc.genealogy.medieval (SGM) are my top choices as accurate general sources.

    I find that Maud, b. about 1146 (I will change the birth date to agree with this), is listed as daughter of the 2nd wife by Doug Smith just today (2 Oct 2003) on SGM. He cites about 7 different source books for his information. Oddly he also has a Matilda de Grey, b. about 1320, by the 1st wife, who married John Botetourte's father John de Botetourte, 2nd Lord Botetourte. I find this very unusual, but CP II:235 agrees with it (naming her Maud). Even with CP's citation I find that two John Botetourtes in succession who each marry two Mauds, daughters of two John de Greys in succession is hard to believe; Certainly the elder Matilda/Maud must NOT have been mother of the son, John Botetourte, who died without issue in 1369, while married to the younger Maud. In fact the elder Matilda/Maud is not shown with any children.

    Now that I check further, CP II:235 also states that the wife of John Botetourte, dsp. 1369, was Maud, daughter of John 2nd Lord Grey, but this disagrees with AR & MCS and also with Doug Smith referring to his other sources. Thus I am leaving her as daughter of the 1st Lord Grey by his 2nd wife. So, even if CP is near the top of my pecking order (and BP with a "probably" agrees), I will take SGM combined with AR & MCS over it, and keep looking at SGM, because there could be a debate brewing on the differences between the sources. "The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants" by Gary Roberts, p. 251 & 325, also has Maud as daughter of John 1st Baron Grey of Rotherfield by Avice Marmion.

    It is being proposed on SGM that Maud de Grey, daughter of John 2nd Lord Grey, was married to Ralph Hastings as his 2nd wife, instead of Maud de Sutton; and that Ralph & Maud were parents of Leonard, b. about 1397. This would be further evidence that this Maud was daughter of John 1st Lord Grey.

    Conflicting sources can be very confusing.

    Jim Weber




    Father: John 1st Baron de GREY , of Rotherfield, KG,Sir b: 9 OCT 1300 in Rotherfield Greys Castle, Henley-on-Thames, Oxfordshire, England
    Mother: Avice MARMION b: ABT 1310 in Wethrington, Lincolnshire, England

    Marriage 1 John BOTETOURTE , of Weoley, Sir b: ABT 1347 in Weoley Castle, Northfield, Worcestershire, England
    • Married: in 1st husband 3 6
    Children
    1. Has No Children Joyce Baroness de BOTETOURTE & Zouche b: ABT 1364 in Weobley Castle, Worcestershire, England

    Marriage 2 Thomas HARCOURT , MP, Sir b: ABT 1343 in Market Bosworth, Leicestershire, England
    • Married: ABT 1374 in 2nd husband 1st wife 1 7
    Children
    1. Has Children Thomas HARCOURT , of Stanton Harcourt, Sir b: ABT 1375 in Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, England
    2. Has Children Maud HARCOURT b: ABT 1376 in Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, England
    3. Has Children Anne HARCOURT b: ABT 1377 in Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, England
    4. Has Children John HARCOURT , Sir b: ABT 1379 in Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, England

    Sources:
    1. Title: Magna Charta Sureties 1215, Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr, 5th Edition, 1999
      Page: 146-7, 50-6
    2. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Page: 30-31, 50-35
    3. Title: Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosley Editor-in-Chief, 1999
      Page: 2888
    4. Title: The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United States, by Gary Boyd Roberts, 1993
      Page: 251
    5. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Doug Smith, 2 Oct 2003
    6. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Page: 30-31
    7. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Page: 50-35
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