Name: Geoffrey II de SAY , MCS, Lord of W. Greenwich 1 2 3
Birth: ABT 1177 in Sawbridgeworth, Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, England
Birth: ABT 1155 1 2
Birth: ABT 1180 4
Death: 19 AUG 1230 in Poitou, France 3
Death: BEF 26 AUG 1230 1 2
Bullet 1215 MAGNA CHARTA SURETY
Burial: Hosp. of St Mary, Dover, Kent, England
The following post to SGM, on 31 Oct 2007, by Douglas Richardson, refutes much of the secondary source information on Geoffrey de Say (so I am going with this instead of MCS, CP, BP, etc.):
The marital history of Geoffrey de Say (died 1230), the Magna Carta baron, is quite muddled in secondary sources. The authoritative Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 470 (sub Say) states that Geoffrey de Say married (1st) Alice, widow of Hugh de Periers, and heiress and possibly daughter of John de Cheyney, yet contemporary records clearly show that Alice de Cheyne was actually this Geoffrey's mother. He is likewise stated by C.P. to have married (2nd) Margery Briwerre, widow of [William] de la Ferté and Eudes de Dammartin, yet this woman appears to have been the second wife of his half-brother, Geoffrey de Say (died 1265/71), of Rickling, Essex, Denham, Suffolk, etc. Rather, evidence indicates that Geoffrey de Say actually married Hawise de Clare, daughter of Richard de Clare, Knt., Earl of Hertford, also a Magna Carta baron, by Amice, 2nd daughter and co-heiress of William Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of Gloucester. Gerald Paget, for instance, notes that Geoffrey de Say had scutage of the knights fees on 7 March 1215, which he held of the Earl of Clare in free-marriage [see Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 485: 3-4, citing Cl. 16 John m. 7]. About 1235 Geoffrey's widow, Hawise de Clare, and their son, William de Say, jointly issued a charter regarding property in Edmonton, Middlesex [see O'Connor Cal. of the Cartularies of John Pyel & Adam Fraunceys (Camden Soc. 5th Ser. 2) (1993): 240]. Hawise de Clare was presumably named for her maternal grandmother, Hawise, Countess of Gloucester.
Hawise de Clare's existence was evidently not totally unknown to earlier historians and antiquarians, as I find that she is mentioned Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 7 (1812): 16-39 (sub Twisleton, Lord Say and Sele) where she is called "Hawise, daughter of _____ de Clare" and placed as the wife of an earlier Geoffrey de Say.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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1. GEOFFREY DE SAY, of West Greenwich, Birling, Cudham, Keston, etc., Kent, Leckhampstead, Buckinghamshire, Kimpton and Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, Edmonton, Middlesex, Hartwell, Northamptonshire, Allington, Hamsey, Saddlecombe, Streat, etc., Sussex, etc., 2nd but eldest surviving son of Geoffrey de Say (died 1214), of Edmonton, Middlesex, Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, etc., Bailiff of Arques, by his 1st wife, Alice (or Adelise) de Cheyne (widow of Hugh de Periers, of Ditton Priors, Shropshire), and daughter and co-heiress of John de Cheyne, of Street, Brighton, and Hamsey, Sussex. He was probably born about 1180. In the period, 1197-1198, he confirmed his father's grant of the manor of Rickling, Essex, to his half-brother, Geoffrey de Say. In 1198 he and his father, Geoffrey de Say the elder, made a grant to the hospital of Drincourt, providing for prayers for the soul of Alice de Cheyne, mother of the younger Geoffrey. He married HAWISE DE CLARE, daughter of Richard de Clare, Knt., 3rd Earl of Hertford (but generally styled Earl of Clare), Magna Carta Baron, by Amice, 2nd daughter and co-heiress of William Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of Gloucester [see CLARE 1 for her parentage]. They had three sons, William, Knt., Geoffrey, and John, Knt. In 1202 Ralph Tesson, Seneschal of Normandy, was ordered to see that Geoffrey de Say the younger had a hundred librates (of the money of Anjou) of the land of Juhel de Mayenne to replace the land which he had lost through the war. In 1208 the Sheriff of Kent was directed to put Geoffrey de Say the younger into possession of that moiety of the manor of Burn, Sussex which Ralph Tesson held. In 1214 he made fine in 400 marks to have his father's lands, and in the same year the sheriffs of Kent, Herts, Bucks, Sussex, Middlesex, and Northampton had orders to give him seisin of the lands which had been his father's. He joined the confederacy of the barons against King John. He was one of the twenty-five barons elected to guarantee the observance of Magna Carta, signed by King John 15 June 1215. In Oct. 1215 the king gave all of Geoffrey's lands except the manor of West Greenwich, Kent to Peter de Craon. In Nov. 1215 Geoffrey de Say, Richard, Earl of Clare, Robert Fitz Walter, and the mayor and two or three or four citizens of London had letters of safe conduct to speak with the Bishop of Winchester and others to treat of peace between the king and the barons. In July 1217 two of his knights had safe conduct to go to London as hostages. Having returned to fealty, he had restoration of his lands 14 Sept. 1217. He and Pernel Pirot renounced any claim in the advowson of Leckhampstead, Buckinghamshire before 1219. He went on pilgrimage to the Holy Land in 1219, and to Santiago de Compostella in Spain in 1223. He was present at the Siege of Bytham Castle in 1221. In 1222 he was granted a weekly fair at Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire. In 1224 he answered for 42 knights' fees in the scutage of Montgomery. In 1228 he gave the manor of Saddlecombe, Sussex to the Templars. At an unknown date, he granted land in Edmonton, Middlesex to Ralph Silvan, together with a covenant not to alienate the property to religious persons or Jews. By an undated charter, he granted five acres of land in West Greenwich, Kent to Symon de Thycheseia. At an unknown date, he confirmed the gift of his cousin, Walkelin Mamimot, to Bermondsey Abbey of of a rent-charge of 60 shillings per annum out of the lordship of Chippenham in Dillehurst. At an unknown date, he gave Alice Blund of Edmonton, Middlesex ˝ virgate of land which Reginald Fitz Ralph formerly held in the manor of Edmonton of him, to be held by service of 5s. per annum. GEOFFREY DE SAY died while in service in Poitou 19 August 1230. He was buried at the Hospital of St. Mary, Dover, Kent, to which he had given the manor of Coldred with his body. His widow, Hawise, joined their son, William de Clare, in a charter dated c.1235 regarding property in Edmonton, Middlesex.
Geoffrey; born c1155; in 1210(?) was in Ireland with King John's army, one of the barons (magnates rather than peers of Parliament) opposed to John and one of the 25 assigned to see that the Magna Charta was observed, pilgrim to Holy Land 1219; married 1st Alice, daughter(?) of John de Chesney and widow of Hugh de Periers; married 2nd in or after 1225 Margery (divorce 12--), sister of William Briwere and widow of (a) ? de la Ferte and (b) Eudes de Dammartin (died 1225), and died in Poitou just before Aug 1230, leaving (presumably by his 1st wife) [William], with a younger son (Geoffrey?). [Burke's Peerage]
Geoffrey de Say II, s. & h. of Geoffrey I, gr.s. William I, b. probably c1155, lord of West Greenwich, co. Kent, Magna Charta Surety, 1215, d. in Poitou shortly bef. 26 Aug 1230, bur. Hosp. of St. Mary, Dover; m. (1) Alice, widow of Hugh de Periers, d. 1175, and h. (pos. daughter) of John de Chesney; m. (2) aft 1225, Marjorie, widow 1st of William de la Ferte, d. 1216, 2nd of Eudes de Dammartin, d. 1225, daughter and eventual coheir of William de Briwere, the elder, d. 1226, lord of Horsley, co. Derby. Geoffrey and Marjorie were divorced. She was living 1233, dead 1237. [Magna Charta Sureties]
GEOFFREY DE SAY II, 2nd but 1st surviving son and heir by 1st wife, was born probably about 1155. In 1180 in the account of the farm of the Vicomte of Arques he is acquitted in respect of a liability of 10 s. "for the land of Geoffrey de Sai which he had with the wife of Hugh de Periers." In the same year he was amerced at the Forest Assize in respect of Hudwic' & Dodinton' (Ditton Priors, Salop); and, again in 1180, with the consent of his wife, he delivered to the prior of Wenlock his manor of Ditton Priors, which was her dower from Hugh de Periers. In 1190 Michael Belet accounted for 100 li. to have right against him of the inheritance of his wife and to have his office. In 1198 he was bailiff of Arques. In 1202 Ralph Tesson, seneschal of Normandy, was ordered to see that Geoffrey de Say the younger had a hundred librates (of the money of Anjou) of the land of Juhel de Mayenne to replace the land which he had lost through the war. In 1203 the King directed the bailiffs of Caen to give to Geoffrey de Say seisin of a manor, the name of which is obliterated, which he held de prestito of King Richard, and which was of the fee of Earl William. In 1204 a notification issued taking the lands of Geoffrey de Say into the French King's demesne. In 1206 he appears as a pledge for Gerard de Furnival. On 15 April 1208 the sheriff of Kent was directed to put Geoffrey de Say the younger into possession of that moiety of the manor of Burn which Ralph Tesson held. Presumably in 1210, he was with the army in Ireland, with his brother Ingram. In 1214 Geoffrey made fine in 400 marks to have his father's lands: and in the same year the sheriffs of Kent, Herts, Bucks, Sussex, Middlesex, and Northampton had orders to give him seisin of the lands which had been his father's.
He took part with the Barons against the King and was one of the 25 appointed to enforce the observance of Magna Carta. With R. Earl of Clare, R. FitzWalter, and the mayor and two or three or four citizens of London he had letters of safe conduct on 9 November 1215 to speak with the Bishop of Winchester and others to treat of peace between the King and the Barons. In October 1215 the King gave to Piers de Crohun all Geoffrey's lands except the manor of Greenwich. In July 1217 two of his knights had letters of safe conduct to go to London as hostages; and in 1217 his lands in Kent, Essex and Sussex were restored to him. In 1219 he went on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and in 12Z3, apparently with William Earl de Warenne, to St. James [of Compostella]. In 1221 he was allowed his scutage for the army of Bytham on the fees which he held in chief, which suggests that he was with the army. He went to France with the King in April 1230, taking with him his son William.
He married, 1stly, Alice, widow of Hugh DE PERIERS, and heir and possibly daughter of John DE CHESNEY. He married, 2ndly, Margery, widow of [i] . . . DE LA FERTÉ, (ii) Eudes DE DAMMARTIN (died 1225), sister and coheir of William BRIWERRE, by whom he was divorced. He died in 1230, in Poitou, shortly before 26 August, [? 19 August] and was buried at the Hospital of St. Mary, Dover, to which he had given his manor of Coldred with his body. [Complete Peerage XI:468-70, XIV:571, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]
Father: Geoffrey I de SAY , Lord of West Greeenwich b: BEF 1135 in Sawbridgeworth, Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, England
Mother: Alice CHEYNE , Heir of West Greenwich & Streat b: ABT 1158 in Streat, Lewes, Sussex, England
Hawise de CLARE b: ABT 1184 in Tonbridge, Tunbridge, Kent, England
- William III de SAY , Lord of West Greenwich b: BEF 1209 in West Greenwich, Kent, England
- Title: Magna Charta Sureties 1215, Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr, 5th Edition, 1999
- Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
- Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
Page: Douglas Richardson, 31 Oct 2007
- Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
Page: Douglas Richardson, 31 Oct 2007
Text: c1180, but I believe he was of age when he made grants in 1198