The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest

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  • ID: I00388
  • Name: Gerberga de GATINAIS 1
  • Sex: F
  • Birth: 915 in Gastins, Seine-et-Marne, Ile-de-France, France 2
  • Death: 952 2
  • Note:
    Turton has Gerberge as "d' Arles", daughter (with a ?) of Rotbold II Comte d'Arles, while AR has Gerberga (de Gatinais?). Neither source seems sure. Others say Gerberga du Maine, de Vienne, or de Tours. @@check ancestry

    ------------------------

    The following post to soc.genealogy.medieval on 1 Jun 1998 by Ken Finton indicates that the only agreement seems to be to her first name (Professor Bachrach, a historian, proposed the existence of Gerberga, daughter of Ratburnus of Vienne, who married Fulk II, on purely political/historical grounds, even though there was no other indication that Ratburnus had a daughter named Gerberga.):

    This is directed at Professor Bachrach:

    There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to the father of Gerberga, wife of Fulk II. It has been called to my attention that you favor her identification as:

    Gerberga of Vienne, d/o Ratburnus. ["Prosopographical Method", _Medieval Prosopography 7_ , no. 2 (1986), 1-23. In his "Fulk Nerra" Bachrach says firmly that she is Gerberga of Vienne, da. of the "mere" (as he puts it, as part of his argument on the political import of the marriage) viscount of Vienne, Viscount Ratburnus I (p. 7 - and see his geneal of this house, chart 14)."]

    ES III:116 says this Fulk m. (1) Gerberga, dau. of Herve, Ct of Maine and (2) the widow of Alain, Duke of Brittany. Turton (chart 6) has her as Gerberga d'Arles, da. of Rotbold II, comte d'Arles. Also, Her father may have been Theobald de Tours.), source Royalty for Commoners, by Roderick W. Stuart, p. 125.

    If she is of Vienne, how can this be backed up? To complicate matters, I see that Christian Thevenot, "Foulque III Nerra, Comte d'Anjou" (1987) endorses Gerberga as Gerberge du Maine, da. of Hervé, Sgr du Maine, as the ES Chart shows.

    Kenneth Harper Finton
    Editor/ Publisher
    THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

    -----------------------------

    I have adopted the ancestry for Gerberga, presented on soc.genealogy.medieval by Alan B. Wilson, based on work by Settipani, which is still speculative.

    -----------------------------

    The following was given in a post-em by Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com:

    ID: I00388 Gerberga de Gatinais

    born: 915 [Ref: Keats-Rohan Family Trees (Settipani Anjou) p211-267]

    married: 937 [Ref: Bachrach-Angevin p274, Bachrach-Fulk Nera p262, ES II:187, ES III:166, ES VIV:116, p24, Genealogiques Capetiens 8, Glocker p299, Keats-Rohan Family Trees (Settipani Anjou) p211-267, Michael Call 401:24, Moriarty Plantagenet p4, Royalty for commoners 167:36, Turton p6, Weis AR7 53:21 & 118:20, Winkhaus 'Anjou' 21], names: [Ref: Moriarty p4, Paget p139, Watney #9, Weis AR7 118:20]

    died: before 952 [Ref: ES III:116, ES XIV:116, Keats-Rohan Family Trees (Settipani Anjou) p211-267, Moriarty Plantagenet p4]

    Some of the sources of the debate about her ancestry are below:

    Gergerba de France, dau. of Hugues, le Grand, duc de France and Hedwige de Germanie as wife of Foulques II and mother of Geoffroy Grisegonelle. [Ref: "Les seize quartiers genealogiques des Capetiens", J.D. de Joannis & R. de Saint-Jouan, Lyon: Sauvegarde Historique, 1958]

    Gerberge "d' Arles", dau(?) of Rotbold II Comte d'Arles [Ref: Turton p6]

    father: Herve Count of Maine [Ref: ES III:116, Royalty for Commoners 167:36] note: RFC contradicts itself=see below.

    father: Geoffrey Count of Gâtinais [Ref: ES XIV:116] Note: does not specify that it is a correction of ES III:116=see above.

    Gerberga of the Gatinais(?) [Ref: Weis AR7 118:20]

    Gerberga de Gâtinais dau of Gausfred de Gâtinais [Ref: Olivier Auffray 28 Jul 2000 msg to SGM]

    Gerberge du Maine, dau of Hervé, Seigneur du Maine [Ref: "Foulque III Nerra, Comte d'Anjou", Christian Thevenot, 1987]

    parents: Hervé, Comte de Maine (no further ancestry); mother: Godehilde de Maine dau of Roricon III, Comte de Maine & Godehilde (no further ancestry) [Ref: Genealogics citing: Paget, Saillot at: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020238&tree=LEO] Note: I show Paget says something else=see below.

    father:Theobald de Tours [Ref: Paget p139, Royalty for Commoners p125]

    father: Geoffrey I, Vicomte of Orleans. Witness Charter of Hugh Magnus, Duke of France 939, 933-942, and sister of Aubrey, Vicomte of Orleans, whose son was Geoffrey, Count of Gatinais, whose son was Aubrey, Count of Gatinais, whose son was Geoffrey, Count of Gatinais, who married Beatrice of Macon. [Ref: McBride2: Vol I File 9: The Paternal Ancestry of Homer Beers James]

    Below is a 31 May 1998 exchange on SGM between & Christopher Nash:

    You might want to look at Bernard S Bachrach's extensive "Some Observations on the Origins of Countess Gerberga of the Angevins: An Essay in the Application of the Tellenbach-Werner Prosopographical Method", _Medieval Prosopography 7_ , no. 2 (1986), 1-23. In his _Fulk Nerra_ Bachrach says firmly that she is Gerberga of Vienne, da. of the "mere" (as he puts it, as part of his argument on the political import of the marriage) viscount of Vienne, Viscount Ratburnus I (p. 7 - and see his geneal of this house, chart 14).


    This would presumably (by Bachrach's reckoning, _Fulk Nerra_, charts 2 & 4) make her the sister-in-law of the _great-granddaughter_ of her husband Fulk 'le Bon'. Viz.: Hermengarde-Blanche d'Anjou, (via Hermengarde-Blanche's m. to Geoffrey II, comte du Gatinais). Are you ok about that? (I haven't checked this further for chronol. -- or other kinds of -- coherence, and I haven't studied Bachrach's argument on Gerberga's ancestry.)

    Ava, a sister of Wm. the Pious, m. 'Geoffroi, c of Nevers/Gatinais'. Their daughter, Gerberge, was first wife of Fulk II, 'le bon' (d. 958), count of Anjou, and mother of his children, from 2 of whom can be traced a large progeny. Unusual hypothesis--contradicts conventional wisdom on first wife of Fulk le Bon, and I can't find any other information on this Geoffrey (not in Bouchard's _Sword, Mitre & Cloister_). This was put forward in C. Lauranson-Rosaz, _L'Auvergne et ses marges du VIIIe au XIe siecle: la fin du monde antique?_ (Le Puy, 1987), in charts at pp. 60, 93, as a possibility but with no discussion in the text. What is the origin of and best argument for this idea? [Ref: Nat Taylor 23 May 1997]

    ES xiv, 116 shows Gerberga, d. 952, who m. 937 Foulques II "le Bon," Count of Anjou, as daughter of Geoffroy, Count of Gatinais (son of Aubray, Viscount of Orleans). It does not mention any wife of Geoffroy.

    When I inquired about the parentage of Gerberga on 26 Oct 1996, contrasting ES xiv, 116, with what was postulated by Bachrach, "ic" (Oxford) commented that ES was right and called attention to a review of Bachrach in the "English Historical Review", June 1996, pp. 668-9. The review was by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan. It promised a forthcoming study of the counts of Gatinais. I haven't followed up to see if it has yet been published. Where does the information on Ava, sister of William "the Pious," come from? [Ref: Alan B. Wilson 25 May 1997]

    (Response): C. Lauranson-Rosaz, _L'Auvergne et ses marges du VIIIe au XIe siecle: la fin du monde antique?_ (Le Puy, 1987), in charts at pp. 60, 93, puts it forward as a possibility, but with no discussion in his text… [Ref: Nat Taylor 26 May 1997

    Gerberge has been much discussed, but clearly Christian Settipani is correct in arguing that her father was Geoffrey of Gatinais. [Ref: TAF 4 Dec 1998]

    Regards,
    Curt




    Father: Geoffrey Count of GATINAIS b: 890 in Orleans, Loiret, Orleanais/Centre, France
    Mother: Ava of ARVERNE b: ABT 893 in Auvergne, France

    Marriage 1 Foulques II "Le Bon" Comte d' ANJOU b: ABT 909 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France
    • Married: 2 MAR 936/37 in 1st wife 3
    Children
    1. Has Children Geoffrey I Grisegnelle Comte d' ANJOU b: 11 NOV 938 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France
    2. Has Children Bouchard I de VENDOME b: ABT 939 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France
    3. Has Children Agnes d' ANJOU b: ABT 940 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France
    4. Has Children Foulques Seigneur de BRIOLE b: ABT 941 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France
    5. Has Children Adelaide (Blanche\Adele) d' ANJOU b: ABT 942 in Anjou/Pays-de-la-Loire, France

    Sources:
    1. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Page: 118-20
      Text: Gerberga (of the Gatinais?)
    2. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Alan B Wilson, 12 Jun 1998
    3. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Alan B Wilson, 12 Jun 1998
      Text: 937
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